[kgr]

Quote

If your hand is suitable for a raise with only 3 cards, you should raise. Example:

10
AJ4
KQ95
Q9754

1♣-1♥
2♥

In my opinion you should avoid rebidding the 5-card club suit unless it's pretty good. This one is not. I know that raising with only 3 is a major crime in France and Poland for instance, but I don't live there.

I would even raise to 2♥ with:

73
K105
KQJ
A10854

Many would rebid 1NT, but if NT is the right spot for us the contract is likely to be positionally wrong-sided.

If responder is strong enough to make a move, there is an excellent method for him/her to find out if the raise is based on 3- or 4-card support with or without shortage, and minimum or maximum within the 12-15 range.

Roland

With my regular partner we play:
1x-1H
2H-..
2S: limit with singleton (2NT asks the singleton)
2NT: long suit trial in clubs
3C: long suit trial in diamonds
3D: long suit trial in Spades
3H: 5+card H, minimal (preemptive)
(similar after 1x-1S-2S)

At this moment, in 1x-1M-2M, we will (almost) never support with 3-card. But it looks a good idea to me, certainly after 1C-1S.
Do you think it is a good idea to do this considering the short and long suit trials we play? (Not possible to stop in 2NT!).
What would you rather change?

[Walddk]

kgr, on Mar 3 2005, 06:38 AM, said:

What would you rather change?

Everything!

I am not saying yours is bad, but I prefer to insert a 2NT relay after 1x-1♠; 2♠, and a 2♠ relay after 1mi-1♥; 2♥, asking for number of trumps, min or max, and shortage or not.

If the members are interested, I will be happy to give you the subsequent responses.

Roland

[kgr]

Quote

If the members are interested, I will be happy to give you the subsequent responses.

..I am

[Chamaco]

Walddk, on Mar 3 2005, 11:51 AM, said:

kgr, on Mar 3 2005, 06:38 AM, said:

What would you rather change?

Everything!

I am not saying yours is bad, but I prefer to insert a 2NT relay after 1x-1♠; 2♠, and a 2♠ relay after 1mi-1♥; 2♥, asking for number of trumps, min or max, and shortage or not.

If the members are interested, I will be happy to give you the subsequent responses.

Roland

I am interested.

Actually, I'd like a structure that:
- allows opener to raise with 3 cards
- allows responder to stop in 2NT if he has an invitational hand with a 4 bagger (opposite a possible 3 card raise).

The current I am using is given below.
It does not make use of relays.
I would be happy to improve it , provided the 2 conditions above are respected (can stop in 2NT and can raise with 3 cards).
All suggestions welcome ! :-)


1D*:1S *= Nebulous D, Precision
2S:?

2NT= natural invitationa, 4cM
3C = help suit Game Try (HSGT) in clubs, guarantee a 5cM
3D = artificial, generic GF, wants to know if opener has 3 or 4cd support.
Opener will cue with 4cd support, bid 3NT with 3 cd suport.
3H = HSGT in H
3S = HSGT in D
3NT= pass/correct (if opener has 4 card support)
4m = splinter


1D*:1H *= Nebulous D, Precision
2H:?

2S = HSGT in spades, guarantees a 5cM
2NT= natural invitational, 4cM
3C = HSGT in clubs, guarantees a 5cM
3D = artificial, generic GF, wants to know if opener has 3 or 4cd support.
Opener will cue with 4cd support, bid 3NT with 3 cd suport.
3H = HSGT in D, guarantees a 5cM
3S = splinter
3NT= pass/correct (if opener has 4 card support)
4m/4H = splinter

[Walddk]

[quote name='Chamaco' date='Mar 3 2005, 07:46 AM'] I am interested.

Actually, I'd like a structure that:
- allows opener to raise with 3 cards
- allows responder to stop in 2NT if he has an invitational hand with a 4 bagger (opposite a possible 3 card raise).[QUOTE]


In that case you can at least use half of it. It's possible to stop in 2NT after 1mi-1♥; 2♥, but not after 1x-1♠; 2♠, because we need 2NT as a relay on that auction.

Here it is anyway:

1x-1♠
2♠-2NT = relay, asking for further info.

3♣ = 4-card support, singleton somewhere, maximum (per definition) *)
3♦ = 3-card support, minimum, with or without shortage.
3♥ = 3-card support, maximum, with or without shortage.
3♠ = 4-card support, minimum, no shortage.
3NT = 4-card support, maximum, no shortage.

*) 3♦ now asks where the singleton is. 3♥ = lower unbid suit. 3♠ = higher unbid suit

.....

1mi-1♥
2♥-2♠ = relay, asking for futher info.

2NT = 4-card support, singleton somewhere, maximum (per definition) *)
3♣ = 3-card support, minimum, with or without shortage.
3♦ = 3-card support, maximum, with or without shortage.
3♥ = 4-card support, minimum, no shortage.
3♠ = 4-card support, maximum, no shortage.

So basically the same as above with just one difference: The relay and responses start one step earlier.

*) 3♣ now asks where the singleton is. 3♦ = lower unbid suit. 3♥ = higher unbid suit.

Note that opener only shows a shortage if he has 4-card support.

1mi-1♥
2♥-2NT = Natural, invitational with exactly 4 hearts.

Roland

[cherdano]

Hi Roland,

I don't see an answer to your relay in case opener has raised with 3 trumps and shortage somewhere. I must conclude you rebid 2♣ with AQx AQJx x T9432
after 1♣ - 1♠

Arend

[Walddk]

cherdano, on Mar 3 2005, 08:54 AM, said:

Hi Roland,

I don't see an answer to your relay in case opener has raised with 3 trumps and shortage somewhere. I must conclude you rebid 2♣ with AQx AQJx x T9432
after 1♣ - 1♠

Arend

Definitely not!

I should have added: 3-card support with or without shortage. You only show your singleton with 4-card support.

It has now been corrected in my initial post.

Roland

[awm]

I also like raising on 3-card support, but I'm not particularly convinced by the structure Roland gave. The probem is, there is usually a reason for the 3-card raise. Frequently this means a singleton or small doubleton in some side suit. But the structure seems to assume that responder can place the contract after knowing whether partner is min or max and how many trumps he has. How is the auction to continue after:

1♣ - 1♠
2♠ - 2NT (asking)
3♥ (max 3-card raise)

Okay, responder has a game try and opener has 3 spades and max. Suppose this means we're on a 4-3 fit. But just because we don't have 8 spades, doesn't make 3NT the right contract. In fact the whole reason for the 3-card raise is that opener believes spades to be a better strain than notrump. We really needs to find out the identity of opener's short/weak side suit, and bid 3NT with good cards there, or 3 or 4 spades with weakness there.

Of course, as others have mentioned, if responder bids 3♦ to show minimum with three, it's quite possible that he's just bypassed all playable contracts (forcing to play 3♠ on a 4-3).

My preference is to play the following quite simple structure after a spade response and raise:

2NT = 4-card spades, game try, not forcing
3-level bids = natural, game forcing (may just locate values), often 4-card spades
3♠ = the only game try with 5+ trumps (forward going but NF)
3NT = choice of games

After the 2NT bid, opener will pass with a minimum and 3 spades, bid 3♠ with a minimum and 4 spades, or bid 4♠ with a maximum and 4 spades. With a maximum and three spades, opener makes a natural call over 2NT. So for example after opening 1♣, opener could bid over the 2NT call: 3♣ to show good 5-6 card clubs and 3 trumps with a max, or 3♦ or 3♥ to locate values in the suit and normally indicate a singleton or small doubleton in the other red suit.

After 3-level bids, opener will normally suggest 3NT if holding a 3-card raise with weakness in the suit suggested by partner. With weakness in the 4th suit, opener knows that notrump will not be the best strain, and can rebid his original minor, raise partner's 2nd suit with a fit, or revert to spades.

The loss of natural game tries actually seems quite small to me here, since the knowledge of opener's original suit frequently answers questions about location of values.

[mcphee]

The structure Roland outlined was designed by Garozzo I think and it is very good. It also allows for natural game tries and can be used with any hand that is simply asking for more information, not just invitational hands.

To raise with 3 trumps is suitable to many hands, the relay lets you arrive at many thin games ideal for imps.