[hotShot]

In general I think that the amount of cheating is overrated. But there is cheating and cheating.

Cheating is:
- needing 10 seconds to play a singleton
- using unauthorised information during bidding and play

This happens a lot.


while cheating is more like.
- playing a board slow (or even stop) when the the result will be worse than AVE-
- using additional ways to exchange data with partner or opps

I don't think this happens so often, because if unknown players are playing to many boards at world class level, they will soomer or later be subject of an investigation.

Unfortunatelly there are:
- bidding misunderstandings that by accident turn out right
- misplays that turn out to be right
- psyches that by luck worked
and
- true experts that can take your breath away (and take your score with it)

These can be missunderstood as cheating.

While the last two things are in good hands with "abuse", should we accept the first?
Should we ask for technical help?
The software could add a random delay to each card of bid, so that it's hard to know who was slow, or deliver the bids of both opps and partner together so that you don't know which of them was the slow one.

[Brandal]

hotShot, on Mar 2 2005, 11:21 AM, said:

In general I think that the amount of cheating is overrated. But there is cheating and cheating.

Cheating is:
- needing 10 seconds to play a singleton
- using unauthorised information during bidding and play

This happens a lot.


while cheating is more like.
- playing a board slow (or even stop) when the the result will be worse than AVE-
- using additional ways to exchange data with partner or opps

I don't think this happens so often, because if unknown players are playing to many boards at world class level, they will soomer or later be subject of an investigation.

Unfortunatelly there are:
- bidding misunderstandings that by accident turn out right
- misplays that turn out to be right
- psyches that by luck worked
and
- true experts that can take your breath away (and take your score with it)

These can be missunderstood as cheating.

While the last two things are in good hands with "abuse", should we accept the first?
Should we ask for technical help?
The software could add a random delay to each card of bid, so that it's hard to know who was slow, or deliver the bids of both opps and partner together so that you don't know which of them was the slow one.

I think people who cheat will cheat,no matter what.

I'm fond of kibitzing tournaments,and the way some
TD's try to eliminate cheating by disallowing kibs,
actually takes away from my "full enjoyment" of
the BBO community.

Now if doing so reduces cheating then so be it,
but those who cheat always seem to find some
way to do so.

[pork rind]

i love to kib, but mostly i look for the world class players whose names i have seen for years. it would not decrease enjoyment to only be able to kib 1 hand or 1 hand and dummy. in fact, i think i would like to be able to do that. on slowness i think it is hard to say. i am very quick(sometimes too quick) but 1 of my favorite partners is so slow both in bidding and play that it almost drives me to distraction. but i see many world class players who are super slow also. this is not cheating. since i mostly play in team games with a huge variety of partners and opps i dont think i see much cheating.
pk

[inquiry]

pork rind, on Mar 2 2005, 01:40 PM, said:

it would not decrease enjoyment to only be able to kib 1 hand or 1 hand and dummy. in fact, i think i would like to be able to do that.

You can do that using BBO software.

Click on the your name from the main lobby, and choose which person you want to kibitz, optiona are:
North
South
East
West
and the default "Show all hands"

This way you can see just what one player sees.,...

Ben

[luis]

"cheating" is a very strong accusation I'd define cheating as doing someting against the laws of bridge with the intention of taking advantage. So you need both an infraction AND an intention to take advantage. Fortunately in most of the cases you only have the first of the two and that can be handled by a TD or comitee without much trouble.
Hunging an innocent guy is worst than letting 100 guilty men walk free...

[epeeist]

hotShot, on Mar 2 2005, 11:21 AM, said:

....
Cheating is:
- needing 10 seconds to play a singleton
- using unauthorised information during bidding and play
....

I have a quibble with one of your examples, needing 10 seconds to play a singleton.

I don't think taking 10 seconds to play a singleton is cheating -- under your definition or otherwise -- if the player usually takes e.g. 5-15 seconds to play a card. Then it's just normal tempo.

I attempt to play at a consistent tempo; meaning that whether I am playing a singleton, or from a longer suit, I take a few seconds. For suits with choices, I plan ahead what I will play if the suit is led so that, again, I can play at a consistent tempo. This is to avoid giving extra information to either my opponent or my partner. Of course, sometimes there are situations where I have to think, but I try to think while play is going on as much as possible to avoid giving information by delays.

[hotShot]

Obiously you are aware of Law 73D2.

But most players seem not to be aware of it. Perhaps I should have made more clear, that this is longer than the usual time.

[TimG]

epeeist, on Mar 2 2005, 03:56 PM, said:

I don't think taking 10 seconds to play a singleton is cheating -- under your definition or otherwise -- if the player usually takes e.g. 5-15 seconds to play a card. Then it's just normal tempo.

Playing in even tempo is to be commended, but I imagine you are VERY slow if you take 5-15 seconds to play each card. And, I don't think varying between 5 and 15 seconds is even tempo.

I would expect that most card plays are made in 2-5 seconds, taking 10 seconds to play a singleton is excessive.

[luke warm]

i agree... that's one of my big pet peeves, people who hesitate far too long to play a singleton ... i probably wouldn't call it cheating, but the intent to mislead seems obvious

[mgoetze]

I think the "autoplay singleton" feature should be removed. I can pretty much always tell.

[Free]

mgoetze, on Mar 3 2005, 01:56 AM, said:

I think the "autoplay singleton" feature should be removed. I can pretty much always tell.

The "autoplay singleton" feature should be automatic imo, BUT!!! with a randomized timer, with a specific timer setting (like between 1 and 3 seconds). This way, people won't think before playing a singleton, and also won't be penalized if a singleton is played too fast. There won't be any (dis)advantages, and everyone will know that the opponents aren't cheating.