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Jump Cuebid

#1 User is offline   UdcaDenny 

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Posted 2014-December-17, 06:44

Today I played 3C with J9 in dummy and singleton on my hand. Opponents opened one C, better minor and I bid 3C meant as asking for a stopper. I had a solid 7 card diamond. My partner passed with J9 in C and said that in standard american and 2/1 I showed a real suit. I never heard of that and why shud I jump in C if they open my suit. I would pass and see what happens. Would like to hear other good players opinion about the meaning of the bid.
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#2 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2014-December-17, 06:47

Absent a partnership agreement to the contrary, 3 of a minor over the opponent's one of a minor is natural and preemptive. This is very standard and, as far as I know, dates back to well before I started playing (which is over 40 years).

The obvious reason is that your RHO rates to have a balanced hand and by not bidding you are allowing your opponents to conduct an unimpeded constructive auction. They will find their fit in one or both majors at a low level.
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#3 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2014-December-17, 08:38

Few systems that date back over 40 years can now be described as 'very standard'. Without discussion, I would have taken it the same way the OP meant it.

Also it has nothing to do with Standard American or 2/1. The opponents have opened, so your system is all off except where you've agreed otherwise. More relevant than what you play is what they play - if they were playing 4cm and a strong NT, 3 preemptive seems pretty bent. If they're playing strong NT and 1 as any balanced, it seems like a pretty sensible choice. Anywhere in the middle is partnership agreement or, without discussion, partnership prayer.
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#4 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2014-December-17, 09:23

View PostJinksy, on 2014-December-17, 08:38, said:

Few systems that date back over 40 years can now be described as 'very standard'. Without discussion, I would have taken it the same way the OP meant it.

Also it has nothing to do with Standard American or 2/1. The opponents have opened, so your system is all off except where you've agreed otherwise. More relevant than what you play is what they play - if they were playing 4cm and a strong NT, 3 preemptive seems pretty bent. If they're playing strong NT and 1 as any balanced, it seems like a pretty sensible choice. Anywhere in the middle is partnership agreement or, without discussion, partnership prayer.

I have played this game a little more recently than 40 years ago. In my opinion, it is still standard to use 3 of a minor over an opponent's 1 of a minor opening as preemptive and natural. Any other treatment would be by agreement.

I would go as far to say that I would be VERY surprised to find out that standard expert treatment would be to use the "jump cue bid" of 3 of a minor in direct seat as anything other than natural and preemptive.
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#5 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2014-December-17, 10:15

indeed, it is my impression that most play

(1m) 3m = pree
(1M) 3M = ask stop w/ long running minor

This is very different from

(1m) pass (pass) 3m

where with a pree in m you just pass it out :)
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#6 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2014-December-17, 10:43

This is interesting. I have always thought that without discussion the direct jump cue of a minor or of a major was treated as one of those stopper-ask things.

Having dabbled at the game, half-off half-on since the sixties, I remember self or partner asking for a stop this way perhaps once a year.

Of the times the opponents have done it (slightly more frequently), a couple club players and a couple pairs whom I don't know have actually thought it was a natural preempt.

I have only seen experienced pairs use it as a stopper ask or something conventional and entirely different from those two choices. Perhaps my observations are not everyone's, because it just doesn't come up very much.

It was fun when one of the two club opponents thought differently from his partner.
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#7 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2014-December-17, 11:12

View PostArtK78, on 2014-December-17, 09:23, said:

I would go as far to say that I would be VERY surprised to find out that standard expert treatment would be to use the "jump cue bid" of 3 of a minor in direct seat as anything other than natural and preemptive.


I very much dislike conflating 'standard' and 'standard expert treatment'. In this country, you'll find 2 as a Benji bid is possibly the closest thing we have to a standard bid of 2, and 2N in response to partner's 1N very much has a standard meaning (esp without discussion) of 'inviting 3N'. But I doubt you'll find any top pairs playing the former, and very few playing the latter.

'Standard expert treatment' is irrelevant to this thread. The OP's partner's assertion was effectively 'so many regular players play it my way that you made a mistake by not understanding it that way'.

The honest/humbler response is to recognise that with so many different systems around, and no easily accessible authoritative respository of bids labelled as 'standard', there's no such thing - and therefore that each time P make a misinterpretable bid, he's taking a risk that you're on the same wavelength. That might be a deliberate calculated risk if he's aware of different interpretations and either expects you to share his or thinks he'll be able to scramble something sensible if you don't, or an accidental risk if he didn't even realise you might take it differently (as in the OP).

In neither case is it helpful for you (or anyone else) to assert any standard. You can most helpfully tell him how you understood it, clarify with him what it will mean if it comes up again, and perhaps tell him that in your experience, most people play it your way without discussion, so he can update his future priors. The whole concept of 'standard' seems like a cheap way to seek a moral highground when partnership understanding has come off the rails.
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#8 User is offline   WellSpyder 

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Posted 2014-December-17, 11:37

View PostJinksy, on 2014-December-17, 11:12, said:

The whole concept of 'standard' seems like a cheap way to seek a moral highground when partnership understanding has come off the rails.

How true - except, of course, that MY understanding is indeed "standard"....

My partner finds it just as annoying when I try to present something as "standard" in the context of what our future agreement should be, let alone our implicit current agreement.
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#9 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2014-December-17, 11:55

and among stronger players, many play it as natural and strong.

opening the suit, even if it doesn't promise more than 3 or whatever, makes the suit more likely to split badly, so overcalling 3m on a normal pre-empt is a mugs' game.
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#10 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2014-December-17, 12:42

View PostJinksy, on 2014-December-17, 11:12, said:

I very much dislike conflating 'standard' and 'standard expert treatment'. In this country, you'll find 2 as a Benji bid is possibly the closest thing we have to a standard bid of 2, and 2N in response to partner's 1N very much has a standard meaning (esp without discussion) of 'inviting 3N'. But I doubt you'll find any top pairs playing the former, and very few playing the latter.

'Standard expert treatment' is irrelevant to this thread. The OP's partner's assertion was effectively 'so many regular players play it my way that you made a mistake by not understanding it that way'.

The honest/humbler response is to recognise that with so many different systems around, and no easily accessible authoritative respository of bids labelled as 'standard', there's no such thing - and therefore that each time P make a misinterpretable bid, he's taking a risk that you're on the same wavelength. That might be a deliberate calculated risk if he's aware of different interpretations and either expects you to share his or thinks he'll be able to scramble something sensible if you don't, or an accidental risk if he didn't even realise you might take it differently (as in the OP).

In neither case is it helpful for you (or anyone else) to assert any standard. You can most helpfully tell him how you understood it, clarify with him what it will mean if it comes up again, and perhaps tell him that in your experience, most people play it your way without discussion, so he can update his future priors. The whole concept of 'standard' seems like a cheap way to seek a moral highground when partnership understanding has come off the rails.

OK. Let's phrase it another way.

I would be willing to venture that, without discussion, at least 2/3 (perhaps 3/4) of regular tournament players in North America would consider an overcall in direct seat of 3 of opener's 1 of a minor to be natural and preemptive.

There. I didn't use the word "standard" once in that sentence.

View Postwank, on 2014-December-17, 11:55, said:

and among stronger players, many play it as natural and strong.

opening the suit, even if it doesn't promise more than 3 or whatever, makes the suit more likely to split badly, so overcalling 3m on a normal pre-empt is a mugs' game.


I never said that bidding 3 of opener's minor showed a "normal" preempt, whatever that is. I just said it was natural and preemptive. I would be willing to bet that no one would consider KQTxxx of clubs and out a 3 overcall of RHO's 1 opening, but some might open 3 at favorable vulnerability.

As for playing a "jump cue-bid" in a minor as strong, I note that this treatment does exist - I found references to it on the internet. I have never seen it or heard of it prior to googling "jump cue-bid" earlier this morning.There are also references to using the jump cue-bid of any opening bid as a stopper ask. In the case of a minor suit, I would not spring this on a partner without prior discussion.
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#11 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2014-December-17, 12:47

But, 3m over 1m IS preemptive, by definition. The question is what it shows..the suit? something else? strength? weakness? It is still preemptive.
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#12 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2014-December-17, 13:52

View Postaguahombre, on 2014-December-17, 12:47, said:

But, 3m over 1m IS preemptive, by definition. The question is what it shows..the suit? something else? strength? weakness? It is still preemptive.

In common bridge terminology, a preemptive bid denotes a long suit and a weak hand. Strength showing bids are typically not referred to as preemptive even if made by a jump bid.

You may note that I referred to the bid of 3m in direct seat over the opponents bid of 1m as "natural" and "preemptive," meaning, as those terms are commonly used in bridge terminology, a long suit holding in "m" and a weak hand.
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#13 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2014-December-17, 13:54

View PostArtK78, on 2014-December-17, 12:42, said:

I would be willing to venture that, without discussion, at least 2/3 (perhaps 3/4) of regular tournament players in North America would consider an overcall in direct seat of 3 of opener's 1 of a minor to be natural and preemptive.

There. I didn't use the word "standard" once in that sentence.


True, but the words 'in North America' were equally unhelpful. OP never mentioned their location (and we still don't know what the opps' system was).

I also don't know what value the subset of regular tournament players has. They're still a hefty minority. At least appealing to experts gives you some inkling of what the optimal system might be. Tournament players come with too much random noise to provide much evidence for anything.
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#14 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2014-December-17, 14:01

View PostJinksy, on 2014-December-17, 13:54, said:

True, but the words 'North America' were equally unhelpful. OP never mentioned their location (and we still don't know what the opps' system was).

OP referred to "standard american" and "2/1" in OP's post, so I am going to assume that OP was playing one or the other. OP certainly did not say that they were NOT playing standard american or 2/1.

And, since North America is the home of "standard american" and "2/1" bidding, I am using North America as my basis for asserting the common use of the jump to 3 of the opponent's opening minor suit bid. If you want to compare it to the common treatment of this type of bid in some other location, feel free. But I don't believe you will be responding to the OP.
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#15 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2014-December-17, 14:19

Both systems are in common use throughout the world, so tell us little about where they were playing, and still less about the opponents' system, which matters more here. Jumping from that statement to the idea that the alleged North American standard should be the OP's seems presumptuous to me.
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#16 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2014-December-17, 16:11

I play it natural and preemptive over 1m. I can write so many reasons why I like it, but mainly;

  • solid suit + no stopper in club suit + other suits covered,comes very rare
  • when it comes, I wanna play 3 NT regardless of we have stopper in club suit or not, if everything else is fine. After 1-3-p-3NT opener is in dark about what to lead. They often don't have enough tricks in club suit to defeat. When they do have it is hard to lead them, unless you are drawing their attention to this suit via stopper asking bid. It escapes me by a mile why would anyone think it is important to have a club stopper when we have a decent shot at 3 NT, especially at imps. The chances of making 3 NT will be higher than the average games we routinely bid everyday.
  • Art already mentioned the the reasons for why it is good to preempt with natural suit.


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#17 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2014-December-17, 17:06

I have no idea what "standard" would be since this pretty much never comes up. Then again, I usually play (1)-2 as natural - if I didn't do that I would certainly hope that 3 is natural!
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#18 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2014-December-17, 18:46

Absent any prior discussion I would certainly have thought it was a Californian Cue bid.
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#19 User is offline   UdcaDenny 

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Posted 2014-December-17, 19:38

First of all thanks for all replies. To clarify we play in a bridgeclub in Chiangmai, Thailand and we play 2/1 by Max Hardy. My partner is a New Yorker and Im from Sweden. In Sweden most players use a jumping cuebid to show a long solid minor and I never heard of anyone having same suit as opener. On the other hand my american partner never heard of stopperasking. Maybe I shud make a takeoutdouble with my strong hand AKx Jx AKQJ10xx x but since my p was a passed hand I thought 3NT was a more likely contract than 6D. Regarding my bad H holding I just took a chance my p had at least Qxx to make a stopper if that suit was the lead. My p had Q109xxx K985 x J9 and didnt bid 3S which I would have raised to 4 so I played 3C 5 down.
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#20 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2014-December-17, 20:39

There definitely is something to be said for showing your playing strength and letting partner look at her cards to see if she has a stopper, all by herself.

My earlier reply was merely what I have observed -- not an opinion of good or bad about methods.
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