[pork rind]

[SIZE=7]

Scoring: IMP

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bidding
north east south west
3 h pass pass double
pass ????


what bids do you like and rank them

[inquiry]

pork rind, on Feb 17 2005, 12:14 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP

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bidding
north east south west
3h p p x
p ?



what bids do you like and rank them

Arghhhhhh... I hate this hand. I held it last night (except when I played it, I had no ♣JACK as east, only KQxxxx).

The choices are
3♠
4♠
4♣

This is imps, but you are not vul. If Vul, clearly a shot at 4♠ has to be right. Partner is in reopening position, and may, or may not have that good a hand. His double could be lighter than it actually was (south did well NOT bidding 4H, if he does, over double this hand has to bid 4♠).

Not vul, do you make the slightly overbid with 4♠ or hold back with 3♠ figruing if partner has extra hie might bid 4♠? Or do you do the stupid thing I did and bid the "safe" 4♣.

I don't like punishing partner for balancing, so with eight hcp, it seemed that 3♠ seems about right on values which no doubt will end the auction. But with this good distribution and source of tricks (clubs), there is little doubt in my mind now that 4♠ is right at either vul.

Ben

[joker_gib]

Great shape and nice ♣, I'll go for 4♠ which is quite a practical bid I think

3♠ is clear underbid imo

[luis]

I think 4s is the practical bid.

[Chamaco]

I cannot think of anything else but 4 spades.

I do not think this means punishing pard for balancing.
I expect pard to have more or less a (perhaps marginal) opening bid for balancing at the 3 level;

Pard is likely to hold 4 spades, and if he had only 3 spades, he is likely to have extra hcp more than a minimum.

Despite my 8 hcp, my hand is a 6 losers hand, which means a playing strength in offense equal to a GOOD opening hand ( when fit is there, a 6 losers hand usually makes game even opposite only an invitational 10-11 hcp hand): this is due du the great club suit, no waster values, and decent spade 4 bagger.
So this hand should try for game even opposite 10 hcp without wasted values by pard.

Think of it this way: if pard had opened and shown later a 4 card spade suit, wouldn't you like to be in game ?

[TimG]

I think this is one of those hands on which jlall wouldn't even bother counting his HCP. 4♠ stands out in my opinion.

[pork rind]

i think 4s is clear also. your partner is going to think about whether opps can make 4h, so he is not going to balance with a bad hand. its not mps. this hand is interesting also in that you almost have to bid 4 spades and not the clubs. ie 4c is not forcing , 5c could miss the spade fit.

[tysen2k]

4♠ is a stretch after a balance, but I still think it's right. You shouldn't have posted partner's hand though because that could potentially bias people's responses.

Looking at both hands, why haven't the opponents pressed on with their 11-card fit? If we were looking only at the east hand, after this bidding I think you would be surprised to find a singleton in partner's hand.

Tysen

[EricK]

This looks like a 4♠ bid to me.

I am surprised Ben didn't wheel out a Zar valuation on this hand. Assuming West has an opening strength hand with 4♠, then this hand is worth 27 Zar points - enough for game.

Eric

[Free]

I think 4♠ is probably the best bid. If you want to be creative, 4♥ is the only alternative, but I wouldn't try to confuse partner...

[hotShot]

4♠

I see a fit in a major, so why search something else.
And I'm not strong enough 4 more.

[inquiry]

EricK, on Feb 17 2005, 02:42 PM, said:

This looks like a 4♠ bid to me.

I am surprised Ben didn't wheel out a Zar valuation on this hand. Assuming West has an opening strength hand with 4♠, then this hand is worth 27 Zar points - enough for game.

Eric

Well to be fair, the hand is slightly stronger than what I had in real world.. (no club jack).. at it was well past midnight, and the RHO being red versus white had used very strong preempts in an earlier match with side tricks. But still, I agree my 4♣ was horrible... I make a lot of bad bids... :-(

Ben

[EricK]

inquiry, on Feb 17 2005, 07:12 PM, said:

EricK, on Feb 17 2005, 02:42 PM, said:

This looks like a 4♠ bid to me.

I am surprised Ben didn't wheel out a Zar valuation on this hand. Assuming West has an opening strength hand with 4♠, then this hand is worth 27 Zar points - enough for game.

Eric

Well to be fair, the hand is slightly stronger than what I had in real world.. (no club jack).. at it was well past midnight, and the RHO being red versus white had used very strong preempts in an earlier match with side tricks. But still, I agree my 4♣ was horrible... I make a lot of bad bids... :-(

Ben

I wasn't actually referring to your bid when you held a similar hand, but only to the reasons you gave as to why you should bid game on this hand.

It surprised me that you didn't supplement your explanation with a Zar count, that's all.

Eric

[mcphee]

Seems to me the opps missed to boat and have failed to raise to 4H. 4S seems clear, bid the game you hope to make.

[TimG]

mcphee, on Feb 17 2005, 07:01 PM, said:

Seems to me the opps missed to boat and have failed to raise to 4H. 4S seems clear, bid the game you hope to make.

Not really. As there have been a few votes for 3S, the opponents probably did the rigth thing by not bouncing to 4H over which 3S would not be an option.

[helene_t]

It surprises me that South didn't bid 4♥. Sure, in this case passing might work better, but South probably can't see that you have a spades fit, and if it were a 5-3-fit, raising to 4♥ would make it more difficult to find.

Is there any general rule for when not to raise even when it's LOTT-safe? I, for one, allways raise when it's LOTT-safe. Bergen and Cohen say that even the judgement of experts can't compete with the LOTT, and I'm far from being an expert.

[Chamaco]

Here is one anti-LOTTraise example:

One of the teachers of the Junior National Team of Italy is known to say: when pard is weak with 6+ trumps and you are weak, raise at the appropriate level with 3/4 trumps, but pass if you have 5 trumps, because you will be outgunned anyways, and, more often than not, your raise will only help opps to bid a slam with 28 hcp or so.

Actually this is not even an anti-LOTT example: it is just a tactics to conceal your length to avoid opps smelling a "Lawful" slam