[keen2learn]

Came across this little devil of a hand today and I was wondering if there is a "right" bid for the South hand.

Partner North opens one no-trump (15/17) All vul
West interposes two spades.
You as south have:

2
AJ65
10
QJ98743

My thoughts were double has to be for penalties, three clubs to play leaving ?
I bid a practical five clubs and got booted as soon as my hand was exposed.
That's not new at BBO but curious as to what might be a better approach.

[Mbodell]

5♣ seems like a practical bid, although it depends a little if it is MP or IMP. A lot of people play lebensohl in which case 3♠ might be a reasonable bid (showing game going values, 4 hearts, and no spade stopper). Partner could choose between 3nt or 4♥ or a scrambling 4m that you'd raise to 5.

[1eyedjack]

I don't have a strong opinion on 5C. Certainly it could work. Certainly good question.

IMPs v MP may make a difference, but you don't say.

I prefer to play takeout doubles here, so the penalty X would not be an option for me. Don't think that I like it even if it were.

Presumably your partner was host. Hope the other two players also left.

[EDIT]
I first read it as AJ52 of Spades and some unspecified red singleton missing from the hand diag, as penalty X was floated as an option. But I now see that it was 1-4-1-7 shape, so penalty X is right out of the window. Takeout X possibly back in the frame, if playing that, but I wouldn't.

[Cyberyeti]

Many players will play a convention here.

Without it 3♠ is the bid, showing 4 hearts and game values.

With it (the convention is called Lebensohl, well worth looking up) you treat a 2N bid as artificial, and the difference between 1N-(2♠)-3♠ and 1N-(2♠)-2N-3♣-3♠ (the 3♣ bid is forced) is that one shows 4 hearts and a spade stop, and the other shows 4 hearts without one.

[whereagles]

Even if pard has 4 hearts, game there will be difficult, as the lack of entries make it hard to setup the clubs.

The hand has 1+2+1+2 = 6 losers and the 1NT bid statistically has 4 cover cards. 5♣ should make thus.

As a rule, when the minor suit doesn't have the ace it's best to bid the suit game, not NT.

[1eyedjack]

It is partner's 5th Heart that makes missing the heart fit so expensive here. With "only" a 4-4 heart fit there are fair chances of getting cut off from the Clubs.

[edit - crossed in post]

[ArtK78]

Most players play that 3♣ here is forcing. This was true even before Lebensohl, although some played it as to play.

I would bid 3♣ hoping it was forcing, but if partner passed at least we would go plus. If given a second chance, I would bid hearts. There are too many hands on which partner has 4 hearts where 4♥ is cold to not bid again. And 5♣ could certainly make.

In any case, passing over 2♠ is out of the question. And doubling is absurd unless you have clearly agreed that the double is negative.

[helene_t]

5♣ is fine. You could bid 3♠ but even if p can bid 3NT or 4♥ you still don't know whether it is better than 5♣.

Here in England, 3♣ would be alertable if it were forcing so before you make a forcing 3♣ bid you might check the flag country of your partner !

[Zelandakh]

Hello keen2learn and welcome to the BBO forums. As others have pointed out this is an area for agreements and what I would expect a partner to understand would vary according to their rating, profile and my estimaton of their abilities based on the play so far. Bidding 5♣ is not unreasonable though. Booting you was imho, especially given that you had gone plus on 7 hands in a row at that stage. It is a little unfair that the host is not here to defend himself. Maybe it was a misclick, maybe some things were said and not reported here,

Having found the hand online, there are also few additions to make. First of all RHO (East) was the dealer. Partner opened 1NT after 3 passes and East (not West ) now bid 2♠ alerted as Cappelletti (spades + a minor). The scoring is IMPs and it is Love All. To Jack's question, one of the other players left (or was booted) and the other stayed for a further 5 hands.

[gordontd]

helene_t, on 2014-June-23, 08:52, said:

Here in England, 3♣ would be alertable if it were forcing so before you make a forcing 3♣ bid you might check the flag country of your partner !

For the benefit of EBU members, this will be one of a very small number of changes in the new Blue Book, which will come into effect at the start of August.

[haldun_p]

Otomatik 6club

[mikeh]

I am with Art in terms of what to bid, but I don't agree with the idea that doubling is ok if negative. No way is this a negative double, which is a double that can be left in when partner has what looks like, to him, nice defence: say KQ9x xx KJx AKxx. That soft 7 card club suit is an anti-defensive holding that operates to downgrade cards that partner will see as defensive assets.

[aguahombre]

It would not occur to me that 3C was anything other than natural and forcing unless alerted. The EBU is a scary organization.

[bluechip10]

Cyberyeti, on 2014-June-22, 02:18, said:

Many players will play a convention here.

Without it 3♠ is the bid, showing 4 hearts and game values.

With it (the convention is called Lebensohl, well worth looking up) you treat a 2N bid as artificial, and the difference between 1N-(2♠)-3♠ and 1N-(2♠)-2N-3♣-3♠ (the 3♣ bid is forced) is that one shows 4 hearts and a spade stop, and the other shows 4 hearts without one.

I play Lebensohl, and I like this treatment.

[1eyedjack]

bluechip10, on 2014-June-24, 17:32, said:

I play Lebensohl, and I like this treatment.

Me too. Just not on this hand.

[Zelandakh]

bluechip10, on 2014-June-24, 17:32, said:

I play Lebensohl, and I like this treatment.

Some other options are transfers (eg 2NT = ♣; 3♣ = ♦; 3♦ = ♥; 3♥ = Stayman; 3♠ = stop ask) or bidding Stayman via a takeout double to leave more options for direct bids (eg add 3♥ as a natural invite to the scheme above). You can also use a hybrid scheme with transfers + a multi-way 2NT, for example by bundling inviational red-suited hands into 2NT.

[MickyB]

aguahombre, on 2014-June-23, 23:01, said:

It would not occur to me that 3C was anything other than natural and forcing unless alerted. The EBU is a scary organization.

Not really fair. The vast majority of club players play weak NT and don't play lebensohl; Within these constraints, 3C NF is perfectly sensible, and I think most play it as such.

[Cyberyeti]

1eyedjack, on 2014-June-24, 22:37, said:

Me too. Just not on this hand.

I was presuming this was pairs, basically you're taking a gamble, if partner has a hand where they can force you to ruff twice, and he only has 2 clubs, then 5♣ will likely play better (xxx, KQxx, AKJx, Kx for example). The worst case for 5♣ is where partner has say Kxx, KQxx, KQxx, Kx and you're off 3 aces in 5♣ but might make 4♥. Much of the time you will score 420/450 in 4♥ and 400 in 5♣, give partner a fairly typical Axx, K10xx, KJx, Ax and 5♣ is no gimme, 4♥ simply demands hearts 3-2 and clubs not 4-0 and will outscore 5♣ even if you do manage to make it.

I'd be interested to see a sim on this, but I expect 4♥ to score better at matchpoints if partner has 4 hearts.

[aguahombre]

MickyB, on 2014-June-25, 02:10, said:

Not really fair. The vast majority of club players play weak NT and don't play lebensohl; Within these constraints, 3C NF is perfectly sensible, and I think most play it as such.

I read a different OP than you did.

[helene_t]

aguahombre, on 2014-June-25, 07:36, said:

I read a different OP than you did.

No. Micky's comment was about EBU being a scary organization. In that context it is relevant that most EBU club players play weak NT. This is not related to OP's system.

Sorry for the hijack.