[cherdano]

I am looking for a simple but effective treatment giving a forcing raise after 1m-1M. We are not playing multi, and would thus like to keep 2NT as natural. We do play xyz, so that e.g. 1m-1♥-1♠ is almost forcing.
I remember someone here suggesting "under-jump shift" for this, e.g. 1♣-1♥-3♦. What do you do over 1♦-1♥ then? Do you use 3♠, giving up the splinter, or 2♠, giving up the strong natural jump shift (rarely needed with xyz)?

I suppose (non-)serious 3NT is not needed after these sequences, as openers strength is pretty well-defined?

Arend

[inquiry]

Well, you don't want to hear it, so I probably shouldn't mention it, but I will. I play a jump to 2NT by opener as a forcing raise of partner's major on 1m-1M.

This really has very little to do with rather you play multi or not, since in standard the jump to 2NT is 18-19 or 17-18 o1 17-19 balanced. I play multi too, and yet I use this jump as forcing raise. In fact, I have lots of available raises...

1m-1M

• 2M = maybe three card support, up to 14 "points"
  
• 3M = four card support, 15-16 points counting distribution
  
• 4m = splinter if other minor, solid suit and four card support if first minor, and fit
  
• 4M = some distributional hand not a lot of hcp, but strong playing stregth
  
• 2NT = 17+ four card support.

The advantage of 2NT is it set's trumps and gives a chance to explore more for slam (at very low level), or for responder to issue a cry of weakness (3♣) and opener can re-invite. A second advantage is that over 1m-1M-3M opener has to be very limited because respondere has to choose now, do I bid game or do I pass. If this 3M is wide ranging, there is no room to investigate. After 2NT and a cry of weakness, opener can re-invite by rebiding below 3M.

The trade off here, however, might be too much for you. You lose the ability to use 1m-1M-2NT as a natural bid. We have found this is not bad, and in fact, have been quite pleased with the auctions that normally go 1m-1M-2NT... what we do is, we rebid 1♠ or 2 of the other minor both as forcing. Responder if weak, will make a weak bid and we can rebid 2NT. However, we have had this auction a couple of times.. .1m=1M=2om=2M=pass, where two in our partners suit turns out to better than 2NT.

Ben

[cherdano]

inquiry, on Feb 16 2005, 03:10 PM, said:

This really has very little to do with rather you play multi or not, since in standard the jump to 2NT is 18-19 or 17-18 o1 17-19 balanced. I play multi too, and yet I use this jump as forcing raise. In fact, I have lots of available raises...

Well, for those who play 18-20 balanced as one multi option, the natural 2NT is not necessary at all, and so it is quite natural to use it as a forcing raise.

Your suggestion to show 18-19 balance by a 2NT re-rebid is certainly interesting. But what does responder do with 7-9 points and a 6card major after 1m-1M-2om? Unless the 2M rebid is limited to max. 6-7 points, I don't see myself passing with 18-19 balanced.

Arend

[Gerben47]

After 1♣ - 1M you can use 3♦ as forcing raise, after
1♦ - 1M you might want to agree that if you have 18-20 balanced you ALWAYS open 1♣ and now 2NT is your forcing raise.

[inquiry]

cherdano, on Feb 16 2005, 11:32 AM, said:

Your suggestion to show 18-19 balance by a 2NT re-rebid is certainly interesting. But what does responder do with 7-9 points and a 6card major after 1m-1M-2om? Unless the 2M rebid is limited to max. 6-7 points, I don't see myself passing with 18-19 balanced.

Arend

Let me explain what we do, which might be different becuase we have one extra treatment not mentioned earlier... 1m-1M-3m shows a good hand, a good minor suit (six cards) and 3 card support for responders major. This means we can not jump rebid out suit with strong one suited hand. This is another reason we play new suit by opener as "forcing'.

Ok so bidding starts...

1m-1M-?

Opener rebids 1NT with some off-shape hands perhaps showing 11-13 (bad 14). He rebids his suit with no fit when weak up to some fairly siginificant values unuited for any other bid. With balanced hand, he has to be 17-19 as we open 1NT with balanced or semi-balanced 14-16, so he can bid new suit (generally other minor) then rebid 2NT. With a strong two suiter he can jump shift (to 2♠ or 3 other minor) or make a normal reverse (to 2♥ or 2♦). A 2♥ reverse is always real suit, a 2♦ reverse is 1RF and could be artificial.

So opener has to come out of the woodwork on his next bid. He can raise partners major, showing three card support, and 17-19 points. He can rebid NT showing balanced too strong for 1NT opener. He can rebid his original suit, showing a normal 1m-1M-3m jump rebid, he can rebid the other minor (on auction like 1D-1H-2C-any-3C) which shows a non-forcing two suiter (a forcinng 2 suiter would have jump rebid 3C initally). He can bid the fourth suit as game force, explore best contract this is generally a one suiter lookiing for stopper in 4th suit.

Responder's first responsibility is to try to describe his hand over the new suit. If responder rebids his suit without a jump, it is not forcing. If he bids the fourth suit it is one round force, and game force unless opener rebids his second minor... for instance.. 1D-1S-2C-2H-3C is not forcing. We also use REVERSE GOOD/BAD 2NT by responder on these auctions.. so that

1D-1S-2C-3C/3D shows weak hands (2D shows weaker hand still, and maybe false preference). While 1D-1S-2C-2NT is 1 round force, and shows either game forcing values with spades, or fair values and a fit for one of the minors. The 2♥ rebid here (as noted above) is one round force, and generally is waiting to see if opener will support the major or describe his hand.

So now back to your six card major suit. With 6-7 points, just rebid your suit at the two level. Opener is likely to pass. With 8-9 points, you can afford to temporize with the other suit. If opener rebids 2NT, you have game, and you can rebid 3M to offer choice of contracts (3NT or 4M). Opener rebids two of your suit you probably have game (this shows good three card support and 17+),

Ben

[TimG]

cherdano, on Feb 16 2005, 09:46 AM, said:

I am looking for a simple but effective treatment giving a forcing raise after 1m-1M.

What is wrong with sort of old-fashioned and simple: double jumps (and jump reverses) are splinters, 4m is 4-6 with good suits and 4M is, well, game?

[cherdano]

TimG, on Feb 16 2005, 06:23 PM, said:

cherdano, on Feb 16 2005, 09:46 AM, said:

I am looking for a simple but effective treatment giving a forcing raise after 1m-1M.

What is wrong with sort of old-fashioned and simple: double jumps (and jump reverses) are splinters, 4m is 4-6 with good suits and 4M is, well, game?

I really dislike this 4M rebid. It gives up all chances to explore for a slam with a 20 point hand. (And notice that the strong 2suiters that are not opened 2C are getting stronger and stronger these days...)

Arend