[gwnn]

After the sequence

1♣-1♥
1♠-2♣*

Opener can still have all three versions of the Polish opener and 2♣ is "XYZ", i.e. a signoff in diamonds or an invitation opposite the weak NT. Now I guess opener should bid 2♦ with a weak NT but what about the other hands?

Jassem gives:

2♦=weak NT (or 15-17 with clubs?)
2♥=18+ 3 hearts, 5 spades
2♠=18+ 0-2 hearts, 5 spades
2NT=18+ 0-2 hearts, 4 spades
3m=18+ 0-2 hearts, 4 spades, 5 cards in the minor

But this seems to forget about the intermediate club hands? Should opener just bid 2♦ on most of them and stretch to force to game with a 16-17 count?

[helene_t]

Are you sure that 1♠ contains the 15-17 hands with five clubs and four spades? Don't they rebid 2♣?

Otherwise I think I would prefer to bid 2♥ with 4315/4306 and 2♠ otherwise. This overloads the 2♥/♠ rebids but we could let the 18+ balanced hands with four spades rebid 2NT and then use 2NT in this auction for something artificial.

[gwnn]

Yes, he wants us to bid 1♠ (I checked again to be sure). So 2♥ would be 15-17 with 4315/4306, NF? 2♠ 15-17, 4135/4126/4036 NF? It's kind of a mess (not your suggestion, but the problem).

[antonylee]

The hands Jassem gives for 2N and 3m simply do not exist (2N -- 42(43) 18+ -- should rebid 2N and 3m -- 4x(5x) 18+ should not canape according to WJ2005 (well, I used to canape with 4M5D hands 18-20 to solve other issues but let's forget that for now)).
I solved the issue in a different way: I rebid 1N with WNT hands with 4S. Now 1C-1H-1S is forcing, 15-17 4S5C or 18+ nat (or 18-20 4H5D for me). But if you don't want to, I think helene_t's suggestion works fine too -- over 2H, any non-pass should be GF; over 2S, only 3D is a signoff (or you could even play Lebensohl to signoff in either minor, basically treating the sequence as a standard reverse).

Edited typo: 1C-1H-1S is 4S5C, not 4H5C...

This post has been edited by antonylee: 2014-May-24, 17:57

[gwnn]

I agree that 2NT is impossible but I like the idea of bidding 1S on 4S5C hands. Maybe then:

2♥=15-17, clubs and 3 hearts
2♠=18+, 5+ spades, with or without 3 hearts
2NT=15-17, clubs and not 3 hearts
3C/3D=canape, 18+

?

On the other hand, this seems to be kind of a special sequence and artificial bids like 2NT promising clubs might be asking for trouble?

[yunling]

Is it possible to play…
2♥=15-17 3♥
2♠=18+ 5+♠
2NT=4♠ & a 5 card minor
3♣=6+♣ 15-17
3♦=3+♦ 15-17
though there is still trouble with the 2NT rebid.

[straube]

Space is tight. Can you afford the ability to sign off in diamonds? How about

1C-1H, 1S-
.....2C-GF
.....2D-an invitational hand of some sort
..........2H-rejects hearts
..........other-natural GF, may or may not have hearts

[antonylee]

gwnn, on 2014-May-22, 05:43, said:

I agree that 2NT is impossible but I like the idea of bidding 1S on 4S5C hands. Maybe then:

I see. Canape'ing with all hands is a good idea on this sequence (as the 4S5D strong hand is always problematic in PC) -- I didn't think about that.

Quote

2♥=15-17, clubs and 3 hearts
2♠=18+, 5+ spades, with or without 3 hearts
2NT=15-17, clubs and not 3 hearts
3C/3D=canape, 18+

?

On the other hand, this seems to be kind of a special sequence and artificial bids like 2NT promising clubs might be asking for trouble?

I like this idea.

[Kungsgeten]

Perhaps this is possible (but I admit may be too complex)? The upside is that 1S denies 18+, making it a bit easier.

1C--1H;
1S = 12--14 without 4 spades OR 5+ clubs, 15--17
1NT = 12--14, 4 spades
2C = 18+ with 5+ minor and another suit, 0--2 hearts
2D = Odwrotka
2H = 12--14
2S = 18+ with 5+ spades, 0--2 hearts
2NT = 18+ semibal, 1--2 hearts
3m = 18+ and 6+ suit, 0--2 hearts
3H = 15--17 with 4 hearts

1C--1H; 1S---
1NT = To play vs weak hand, forcing vs 15--17 (may bid 2C or 2H with 3 card support, may lose 4-4 spades here though)
2C = XYZ. 15--17 does not bid 2D.
2D = XYZ. 15--17 bid 2S (since the weak hand can not have 4S), 3D (if opener can not have 5D332) or 3H.
2H = To play vs weak hand. What to do with 15--17?

1C--1H; 2C---
2D = Asking.
....2H = Extras and 5-4 minors. 2NT asks for longer minor. 3m shows 4 card support. Other semi-natural and no 3 card minor.
....2S = 4 spades and longer minor.
........2NT = Asks.
............3m = Natural "min"
............3H = Clubs and extras
............3S = Diamonds and extras
............4m = 6-4 and extras
........3S = 4 card support, min
........Jump = Splinter with spade support
........Other = Q-bid with spade support and extras
....2NT = 5-5 minors, min. 3m is preference and opener bids 3M shortness.
....3m = 5-4 minors, min
....3HS = Shortness, 5-5 minors and extras
2H = 6+ hearts
2S = Natural, something like 6-5?
2NT = 3+ in both minors, at least mild slam interest
3m = 5-5 hearts and the minor
3H = Good 7+ suit, sets trump

[Zelandakh]

I checked Dan Neil's wj2005 FD card and it gives:

1♣ - 1♥; 1♠ - 2♣ - 2♦ = 12-13(-), 2♥
1♣ - 1♥; 1♠ - 2♣ - 2♥ = 12-13(-), 3♥
1♣ - 1♥; 1♠ - 2♣ - 2♠ = 13(+)-14, 3♥
1♣ - 1♥; 1♠ - 2♣ - 2N = 13(+)-14, 2♥
1♣ - 1♥; 1♠ - 2♣ - 3♣ = 15+, 5+♣ 4♠
1♣ - 1♥; 1♠ - 2♣ - 3♦ = 18+, 5+♦ 4♠
1♣ - 1♥; 1♠ - 2♣ - 3♥ = 18+, 5♠ 3♥
1♣ - 1♥; 1♠ - 2♣ - 3♠ = 18+, 5♠, no 3♥
1♣ - 1♥; 1♠ - 2♣ - 3N = 18+, 4♠, no 3♥

That seems less than optimal with the 2♦ call badly underused so I can understand why it got changed. Unfortunately I cannot find an online link to this sequence in wj2010 but a structure based on 2♦ = weak NT; 2♥+2NT = 15-17; and others = 18+ seems completely logical to me. Indeed, 2♥ could even be, for example, 15+ with 3 hearts with a further relay to differentiate.

One thing that seems relevant is whether wj2010 uses 1♣ - 1♥; 1♠ - 2♦ as weak and natural (as wj2005) or as an artificial GF. If the latter then we have to be careful of getting too high with a misfit; if the former then we can be assured of at least invitational values opposite and therefore the 15-17 hands are naturally GF.

[straube]

Kungsgeten, on 2014-May-25, 07:19, said:

Perhaps this is possible (but I admit may be too complex)? The upside is that 1S denies 18+, making it a bit easier.

1C--1H;
1S = 12--14 without 4 spades OR 5+ clubs, 15--17
1NT = 12--14, 4 spades
2C = 18+ with 5+ minor and another suit, 0--2 hearts
2D = Odwrotka
2H = 12--14
2S = 18+ with 5+ spades, 0--2 hearts
2NT = 18+ semibal, 1--2 hearts
3m = 18+ and 6+ suit, 0--2 hearts
3H = 15--17 with 4 hearts

I think this is on the right track. How about putting your 18+ semi-bal into your 2C rebid to leave responder more room to show shapely hands? Opener's 2S rebid probably stays 5+ spades, but 2N+ promise 6+ minors or 5m/5m etc.

[gwnn]

Zelandakh, on 2014-May-25, 09:05, said:

I checked Dan Neil's wj2005 FD card and it gives:

1♣ - 1♥; 1♠ - 2♣ - 2♦ = 12-13(-), 2♥
1♣ - 1♥; 1♠ - 2♣ - 2♥ = 12-13(-), 3♥
1♣ - 1♥; 1♠ - 2♣ - 2♠ = 13(+)-14, 3♥
1♣ - 1♥; 1♠ - 2♣ - 2N = 13(+)-14, 2♥
1♣ - 1♥; 1♠ - 2♣ - 3♣ = 15+, 5+♣ 4♠
1♣ - 1♥; 1♠ - 2♣ - 3♦ = 18+, 5+♦ 4♠
1♣ - 1♥; 1♠ - 2♣ - 3♥ = 18+, 5♠ 3♥
1♣ - 1♥; 1♠ - 2♣ - 3♠ = 18+, 5♠, no 3♥
1♣ - 1♥; 1♠ - 2♣ - 3N = 18+, 4♠, no 3♥

That seems less than optimal with the 2♦ call badly underused so I can understand why it got changed. Unfortunately I cannot find an online link to this sequence in wj2010 but a structure based on 2♦ = weak NT; 2♥+2NT = 15-17; and others = 18+ seems completely logical to me. Indeed, 2♥ could even be, for example, 15+ with 3 hearts with a further relay to differentiate.

This is just a modified Magister, and that is also given in WJ2010 as the "PCI" sequence (Polish Club International).

Quote

One thing that seems relevant is whether wj2010 uses 1♣ - 1♥; 1♠ - 2♦ as weak and natural (as wj2005) or as an artificial GF. If the latter then we have to be careful of getting too high with a misfit; if the former then we can be assured of at least invitational values opposite and therefore the 15-17 hands are naturally GF.

Sorry, I wasn't clear in the opening post. The idea is to have a 2-way checkback, i.e. 2♣ is weak with diamonds or invitational and 2♦ is art. GF. This was a suggestion of Jassem for "PCI pro," and I like it more than Magister.

I'm kind of back to thinking that 15-17 can just decide if they are a weak NT or a strong hand*. I know I sound like someone who is ignoring the replies but I promise I'm not. Anyway, 1♣-1♥; 2♣ would be forcing to 2H/2NT/3♣ anyway, so getting too high (i.e. 2NT, say) is not really an issue, since responder should be prepared to get that high if opener has the club intermediate hand.

*-one reason why I think this is not as clumsy as it sounds is that opener will be in this situation in competition anyway, say:
1♣-(1♠)-2♦*-p
2♦ to play opposide 1♣, ~7-10

I guess not every hand with clubs will bid 3♣, sometimes you're allowed to pass too right? Say you have a 3415 15-count, is passing not best (maybe not, I dont know)?

[gwnn]

Actually, on the very next page, Jassem addresses this issue, but I didn't see this until now. He has:

Jassem said:

AQT6 T2 3 AKQJ98 3♣. This hand does not want to play 2♦. 3♣ is forcing, so it might get you too high (if partner intends to sign off in diamonds), but you have to take the small chance.

Jassem said:

KQT3 K J52 AQJ65 2♦. If partner wants to play just 2♦, you don't want to go any higher. If she continues to bid, then you will surely get to game.

And we even find out what 2NT "natural" is supposed to mean!

Jassem said:

KQT6 7 AQT8 AKJ3 2N. This leaves room for finding a possible fit in either minor.

I guess 4153/4135 with a bad 5cm could also qualify.