[straube]

A friend was asking me about strong 2C sequences in concert with a 2H negative response. I suggested looking at Kokish after 2C-2D but I've always had reservations about Kokish because it seemingly gives up 2C-2D, 2H-2N and higher sequences.

I know some use these "relay breaks" for transfers to suits. So 2C-2D, 2H-2N would show long clubs and so on. That's useful although it gets in the way of opener showing his heart-based hand. I'd thought to use 2C-2D, 2H-2N and higher for hands with 5+ hears and some other feature.

First question though, why do most play that 2C-2D, 2H is the stronger balanced hands while 2C-2D, 2N is the 22-24 balanced hands? The 22-24 are probably a lot more frequent than the 25+ balanced hands, so put these into the 2H rebid.

I'd thought to use...

2C-2D, 2H-
.....2N-5H/4C
.....3C-5H/4D
.....3D-5H/4S
.....3H-6H

because whatever opener has, balanced or hearts, he'll be happy. But we've got more problematic hands to solve, right? For example, if we use the "regular" puppet stayman, then we have trouble showing 5S/4H. I know there are work arounds here, but maybe an improvement is...

2C-2D, 2H (hearts or 22-24)
.....2S-relays
.....2N-4H/5C
.....3C-4H/5D
.....3D-5S/4H
.....3H-?
.....3S-?

What other problem hands could we put in here? Or maybe even...

2C-2D,
..........2H- (22-24 balanced)
..........2S-5S
..........2N-5H
..........3C-C
..........3D-D
..........3H-25+ bal, 4H
..........3S-25+ bal, 4S
..........3N-25+ bal, no major

and now...

2C-2D, 2H-
.....lots more room to show pattern opposite a known balanced hand

We might find it even more useful to stick all the balanced hands within the 2H rebid and show extras later.

[straube]

2C-2D, GF without 4S?
.....2H-bal of mostly bal?
..........2S-bal or mostly bal?
..........etc-various patterns without 4S?
.....etc-unbal

2C-2H =negative

2C-etc-GF with 4S?

Not exactly this, but what many folks are doing is...

2C
.....2D-GF bal or without a suit that meets certain standards
.....2H-neg
.....etc-suits that meet certain standards

Which is fine but then they are having to show the same patterns in two different ways when there is very little room to do so.

[mgoetze]

 straube, on 2014-May-09, 20:26, said:

First question though, why do most play that 2C-2D, 2H is the stronger balanced hands while 2C-2D, 2N is the 22-24 balanced hands? The 22-24 are probably a lot more frequent than the 25+ balanced hands, so put these into the 2H rebid.

If you never break after 2♥ it doesn't really matter, you'll be at 2NT either way. If you do want to design breaks, wouldn't it be nice to be able to design them around some assumptions as to what opener is likely to have? My thinking would be design the breaks around the heart hands and then decide whether they are helpful for the balanced hands or not.

It makes the most sense to me to have the breaks show a 2-suiter with no heart fit (perhaps 5+-5+ with 0-1 hearts but maybe that's too strict.) These hands are really hard anyway and only get worse going higher via Kokish. For instance:

2♣-2♦; 2♥-...

...2♠ relay
...2NT Spades and Clubs
...3♣ Spades and Diamonds
...3♦ Minors

(Since responder is giving a very exact description of his hand and is weaker you want to avoid responder becoming declarer, thus the transfer-like scheme.)

[awm]

I agree that it makes more sense to put the weaker balanced hand in 2♥ to gain the extra space. Probably people do it the other way to minimize the change from their pre-Kokish system.

Not sure about the relay breaks proposed here though; it seems to me that a single-suited minor hand is more frequent and also difficult to show over opener's third call.

[Vampyr]

 awm, on 2014-May-09, 23:23, said:

I agree that it makes more sense to put the weaker balanced hand in 2♥ to gain the extra space.

Yes, we put 20-bad22.

[straube]

 Vampyr, on 2014-May-10, 03:08, said:

Yes, we put 20-bad22.

That's interesting. So you open 2N with good 22-24 or so?

More important, what is your 2C structure? For example, what are your responses to 2C and what do you do after 2C-2D, 2H?

[straube]

Found this. The idea is to open 2N with 22-23 or so and open 2C with 20-21 or 24+

3D, 3H=GF transfers with 6M
2N,3C=transfers (I think just weak hands but I'm not sure)
2S=spades (weak)
2H=pass or correct
2D=hearts or waiting; relay
…..2H: weaker balanced hand
……….2S-2N: 2D was waiting; “reverse” kokish
…..2S: primary minor, secondary major
…..2N: 24+
…..3C: primary hearts
……….3D: double negative
…..3D: primary spades
……….3H: double negative
…..3H: primary clubs
…..3S: primary diamonds

So responder mostly shows the weak hands right away. The 2H response is like the traditional 2H negative, balanced or fairly so. I'd like to know what the suggested continuations are over that. Ideas? Because opener may want to rebid 2N to play (20-21) or to show the 24+ balanced hand....except the 24+ balanced hand knows partner doesn't have a 5-cd major so at best he's hoping to find a 4-4 major suit fit. Maybe that hand just rebids 3N?

[straube]

Here's another scheme for 2C as GF or 20-21 bal

2D-2H=20-21
.....P-weak
.....2S-relay to 2N to play or for usual methods
.....2N-mm GF, follow with M shortness if fit is found
.....3m=4H/5m GF
.....3H-5H/4S GF
.....3S-5S/5H GF
.....etc-GF void showing splinters

2H-2S=20-21
.....P=weak
.....2N=mm weak
.....3C/3D =as over H (whatever that means)
.....3H=5S/5H slam interest
.....3S=5S/4H GF
.....3N/4C/4D= as above (whatever that means)
.....4H=Texas

2S-2N=20-21
.....3L=splinters

2N, 3C, 3D, 3H=transfers. acceptance=20-21
.....P-wea
.....3D/3H/3S=shortness slam try
.....3N=balanced slam try

[straube]

2C-22+ if bal
.....2D-positive
..........2H-bal or
...............2S-bal or
....................2N-bal
.........................systems on
..........2S-unbal, 4+ spades
...............1N-asking
....................2C-clubs
....................2D-diamonds
....................2H-5S/4H
....................2S-6S
..........2N-5+H unbal
...............3C-asking
....................3D-4D
....................3H-6H
....................3S-4S
..........3C-5C, unbal
...............3D-asking
....................3H-4H
....................3S-4D
....................3N-just clubs
....................4C-just clubs
..........3D-6D
..........3H-4H/5D
..........3S-5D/4C
..........3N-5D/5C, f
.....2H-DN, no major or one 5+ major
.....2S-DN, exactly 4 spades, 0-3 hearts
.....2N-DN, exactly 4 hearts, 0-3 spades
.....3C-DN, 4S/4H
.....3D-DN-4S/5H
.....3H-DN-5S/4H
.....3S-DN-5S/5H

Tested these DNs and they seem to work pretty well. Say it goes 2C-2H, 2N. Now responder can place the contract in any suit (no transfers). Same for 2C-2S, 2N; responder can place in a minor. The most problematic is the 2C-3C response, but it's usually a winner, too.

[Vampyr]

 straube, on 2014-May-10, 08:57, said:

That's interesting. So you open 2N with good 22-24 or so?

More important, what is your 2C structure? For example, what are your responses to 2C and what do you do after 2C-2D, 2H?

Yes, we do.

After 2C-2D-2H we bid 2S to ask (isn't this assumed with Kokish?) and 2NT to play 3m opposite 20-21(22).

[Kungsgeten]

Quote

First question though, why do most play that 2C-2D, 2H is the stronger balanced hands while 2C-2D, 2N is the 22-24 balanced hands? The 22-24 are probably a lot more frequent than the 25+ balanced hands, so put these into the 2H rebid.

One reason could be that the strong hand would want to bid the majors first? 'Using Kokish relay, responder will declare a possible spade contract.

[benlessard]

For me me its a no brainer that 2C and 2NT should be inverted (with ways to stop in 2M). It look good, its sound both for frequency and for safety principles.

Since im a strong clubber I dint get the chance to truly test the method however.

[Vampyr]

 benlessard, on 2014-May-11, 00:00, said:

For me me its a no brainer that 2C and 2NT should be inverted (with ways to stop in 2M). It look good, its sound both for frequency and for safety principles.

I have been thinking about using major-suit negatives over 2♣.

[kenrexford]

FWIW, I prefer a "Kokish" relay for the more problematic unbalanced hands. I have written up a structure, found on my blog. Just Google "rexfordized Kokish" if interested.

[straube]

 kenrexford, on 2014-May-11, 06:50, said:

FWIW, I prefer a "Kokish" relay for the more problematic unbalanced hands. I have written up a structure, found on my blog. Just Google "rexfordized Kokish" if interested.

Opener bids 2C
Responder bids 2D
Opener bids 2H (hearts and unbalanced, OR four-card major with 5+ minor)
Responder bids:

1. 2S waiting
2. 2NT with 5 spades, 0-4 hearts
3. 3C with 5 hearts, 0-4 spades
4. 3D with 5-5 majors
5. 3H with 0-1 spades, 2-3 hearts, 4+ in each minor, values
6. 3S with 0-1 hearts, 2-3 spades, 4+ in each minor, values

If Responder bids 2S waiting, Opener bids:

a. 2NT = 4-card major with longher minor
b. 3C or 3D = natural with 5+ hearts
c. 3H = six hearts
d. 3S = 6H/4S
e. 3NT = 5H/4S

If Opener bids 2NT, Responder bids:

I. 3C asking
II. 3D with 4-4 majors

If Responder bids 3C asking, opener bids:

i. 3D with diamonds
ii. 3H with hearts and longer clubs
iii. 3S with spades and longer clubs

[straube]

Thanks for your suggestion ken. I think it's better to put all of the balanced hands and just a few of the unbalanced hands into the 2H rebid. This leaves more room for responder to show shape and if the bidding goes
2C-2D, 2H-2S would usually suggest that responder doesn't have shape he wants to show or is balanced or can describe his hand adequately with stayman and transfers.

So I'd swap and use 2C-2D, 2N to show 5+ hearts. I'm just robbing what I do for my club structure here and I think it works pretty well.

I could use help with the math here. For example, it might make sense for....

2C-2D,
.....2H-balanced or 4M/5m
..........2S-balanced mostly
.................2N-balanced
.................3C-clubs and a major
.................3D-?
.................3H-4H, 5D
.................3S-4S, 5D
..........2N-4M/5m?
..........3C-6 diamonds?
..........3D- 6 hearts?
..........3H-6 spades?
..........3S-6 clubs?
.....2S-5S
.....2N-5H
..........3C-relays
...............3D-and diamonds
...............3H-6H
...............3S-and spades
.....3C-just clubs
.....3D-just diamonds
.....3H-5H/4C
.....3S-5D/5C

Something like that.

[newroad]

Hi All,

Seems pretty simple to me (why 2♣ 2♦ 2NT shows the weaker of the two strong BAL ranges)

• 2♣ (P) 2♦ (P) 2♥ (DBL) is too easy a way to get hearts, or a heart lead in (so reduce the frequency of it) and, as someone already mentioned
  
• 2♣ (P) 2♦ (P) 2♥ (P) 2♠ is likely to be anti-positional

As to some of the other topics, I played first 2♣ 2♠ and then 2♣ 2♥ as immediate double-negatives for years. They worked fine, but once again, had the odd anti-positional issue. These days I have switched to a pseudo-Kleinman

2♣ = UNBAL without primary diamonds
2♦ = UNBAL with primary diamonds, or BAL

In both cases, play step one as waiting, step two as NAT semi-POS or POS, and higher quite specific.

Regards, Newroad

[blackshoe]

What does Kleinman do for a rebid with the minor suit hands?

[straube]

We have different design goals. You're more concerned about position and I'm more concerned with finding fits. If I had two strong openings to work with it would be a lot easier.

I'm feeling more and more that I don't like the 2C as 20-21 or GF. It reminds me too much of little club (combining strong and weak NT meanings) and the problems I think are associated.

I don't really understand the urgency in separating the 22-23 from the 24+ when it's opposite a positive 2D response. When partner gives a negative 2H response, then I do, but obviously Kokish isn't available at that point.

Kokish makes more sense to me when the 2D response is waiting (perhaps negative). Now opener can Kokish and rightside NT and still enjoy Stayman and transfer auctions even opposite the DN.

[kenrexford]

 straube, on 2014-May-12, 16:12, said:

We have different design goals. You're more concerned about position and I'm more concerned with finding fits. If I had two strong openings to work with it would be a lot easier.

I'm feeling more and more that I don't like the 2C as 20-21 or GF. It reminds me too much of little club (combining strong and weak NT meanings) and the problems I think are associated.

I don't really understand the urgency in separating the 22-23 from the 24+ when it's opposite a positive 2D response. When partner gives a negative 2H response, then I do, but obviously Kokish isn't available at that point.

Kokish makes more sense to me when the 2D response is waiting (perhaps negative). Now opener can Kokish and rightside NT and still enjoy Stayman and transfer auctions even opposite the DN.

With two strong openings, as with New Frontiers, the ability to develop pattern is enormous, and you can still control who declares well.