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MoTown Minors System Description and Link

#1 User is offline   JmBrPotter 

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Posted 2014-April-19, 03:18

Straube,

System principles:

- Shape first (inspired by Roman Club)
- Bid early, bid often, and stop fast when you are not going anywhere
- Many unsound or preemptive openings
> Weak two opening bids in all four suits (inspired by Roth-Stone)
> Open 1NT on 10-14 balanced (including =5-3-3-2 and 3=5-3-2 shapes) in all seats at all vulnerabilities
> Open 2NT on x-y=5=5 11-15 counts in all seats at all vulnerabilities
> Open 3NT on AKQxxxx in any suit when the hand has no side entry
> 3-suit openings deny a 7-card suit with all three top honors.
> Open all 11-counts (and many slightly shapely 10-counts) as "full valued" opening hands
> Have a special opening bid sequence for 3-suited hands to keep them out of other auctions
> Avoid getting to a natural 2NT when the partnership might hold less than 23-24 HCP in the combined hands

System Book URL: MoTown Minors Book


Opening Bids Table with some initial responses and rebids:

1: 11-37 One Round Force
1: 15-37 One Round Force

Some stuff in the 1 and 1 openings
- Bid hands that would open 1 in most big club systems get divided about evenly between these to conventional openings.
- Three-suited hands get split into six HCP ranges, three in each of the above openings
- Balanced hands bigger than 14HCP get split between these two openings
- Minimum range minor suit one-suiters live inside 1
- Major suit oriented "Standard" 2 openers get split between 1 and 1
- Minor suit oriented "Standard" 2 openers begin with 1

1, 1: 11-20HCP, always unbalanced (5-3-3-2s get treatment as balanced with less than 8 tricks in hand or less than 4 defensive winners.)
> 1-suited with 6+ cards in the opened suit (rebid or jump rebid opened suit to show strength)
> 2-suited with a second suit NOT longer than the opened major (simple rebid a new suit [minimums] or jump-shift [maximums]---both rebids non-forcing)
> Response & rebid structure otherwise similar to 2/1 methods with adjustments for the likely 4-card major

1NT: 10-14HCP, balanced
> 2: ask for a 5-card major; over the expected 2 negative response, responder may look for a 4-4 fit by bidding 2 or 2 (or pass as a runout) or rebid 2NT invitational
> 2, 2: Jacoby with doubleton showing super-accepts; responder's 2NT rebid invites game
> 2: Transfer to s---Normally used as a runout or slam try
> 2NT: Transfer to s ---as above

2, 2, 2, 2: Weak Two Opening Bids

2NT: 11-15HCP with x-y=5+=5+ distribution:
> 3, 3: Sign-off
> 3: Heart stopper for 3NT; usually no spade stopper; may rebid s or s to try for a major suit contract
> 3: Spade control for 3NT; no heart stopper; natural major suit development as above
> 3NT: to play
> Higher: usually slam tries except for immediate sign-offs in s or s (which may be preemptive)


3, 3, 3, 3: Preempts that deny holding AKQ5432 or stronger in trumps

3NT: AKQxxxx in one suit and no side entry (Gambling 3NT in all 4 suits)

Higher openings: Whatever you like will do just fine. The system book offers ideas, but any sane practice will fit.


Initial responses to 1 and 1:

1-(Pass)-1: Waiting bid 0-29HCP any shape/strength combination NOT included in the responses, below
1-(Pass)-1: Waiting bid 0-25HCP any shape/strength combination NOT included in the responses, below

1, 1-(Pass)-1NT: 10-14 HCP, balanced (including all 5-3-3-2 shapes). Responses and rebids ignore the 1m opening. Opener is captain as though responder made a natural 1NT opening.

1, 1-(Pass)-2NT: 15-16 HCP, balanced (including all 5-3-3-2 shapes). Responses and rebids ignore the 1m opening. Opener is captain as though responder made a natural 2NT opening.

1, 1-(Pass)-3NT: 17-18 HCP, any 4-3-3-3 shape. Responses and rebids ignore the 1m opening. Opener is captain as though responder made a natural 3NT opening.

1, 1-(Pass)-1, 1, 1 (not a waiting bid): balanced hand too strong or off-shape for any immediate NT response; 1NT systems are on but opener's 1NT rebid is natural and makes responder captain in a game forcing auction

2, 2, 2, 2: 3-8HCP concentrated in a 6-card suit (one-suited hand)
3, 3, 3, 3: 3-8HCP concentrated in a 7-card suit (one-suited hand)


Notrump Structure (for all balanced hands which include all 5-3-3-2 hands):

> 10-14 HCP: Open 1NT
> 15-18 HCP: Open 1 and rebid a simple (1)NT (1NT opening systems on)
> 19-22 HCP: Open 1 and rebid a simple (1)NT (1NT opening systems on)
> 23 or 24 HCP: Open 1 and rebid a single jump (2)NT (treat as natural 2NT opening)
> 25 or 26 HCP: Open 1 and rebid a single jump (2)NT (treat as natural 2NT opening)
> 27 or 28 HCP: Open 1, first rebid 2 (claims to be 3-suited with 15-34 HCP), and second rebid a simple (2 or 3)NT (treat as natural NT opening)
> 29 or more HCP: Open 1, first rebid 1 (claims to be 3-suited with 11-26 HCP), and second rebid a simple (2 or 3)NT (treat as natural 2NT opening; special sequences available for slam in hand looking for a grand situations)


One-suited hands with s or s:

> 11-20 HCP: Open the major and rebid it. Respond and rebid similar to 1M openings in "Standard or 2/1"
> 8+ offensive winners with 4+ defensive winners: Open 1 (w/ s) or 1 (w/ s) and rebid your major at the 1-level. Respond and rebid like 1M openings in "Standard or 2/1"
- Hands that "fall in the crack" between these treatments bid as one or the other with awareness of the sub-minimum or super-maximum situation. This is very rare.


One-suited hands with s or s:

> 11-15 HCP: Open 1 and rebid the long minor at the 2-level (Adverse bidding is common and sometimes successfully preemptive.)
> 16-20 HCP: Open 1 and rebid the long minor at the 3-level
> 9+ offensive winners with 4+ defensive winners: Open 1, first rebid 2 (responder has an all but forced 2 rebid), second rebid long minor at the 3-level


Three-suited hands:

>11-14, 18-20, or 24-26 HCP: Open 1, first rebid 1 (claims 3-suited---follow specialized response and rebid structure)
>15-17, 21-23, or 27-34 HCP: Open 1, first rebid 2 (claims 3-suited---follow same specialized response and rebid structure)


Two-suited hands with or as the "shorter suit":

> 11-15 TP: Open one of the (usually) 4-card major and rebid (nonforcing) two of the (usually) 5-card "second" suit
> 16-20 TP: Open one of the (usually) 4-card major and rebid (nonforcing) three of the (usually) 5-card "second" suit
> Stronger: Begin as though one-suited in the longer suit and show the shorter major suit as a side suit if it becomes appropriate
- The second suit bid is never shorter and the suit lengths are equal or the length difference is one card


Two-suited hands with a shorter minor suit and either or as the "longer suit":

> 11-15 TP: Open 1 and rebid 2 or 2 (non-forcing); the minor stays concealed unless responder provokes a rebid to show it
> 16-20 TP: Open 1 and rebid 2 or 2 (non-forcing); the minor stays concealed unless responder provokes a rebid to show it
> Stronger: Begin as though one-suited in the major suit and show the shorter minor suit as a side suit if it becomes appropriate
- The second suit bid is never shorter and the suit lengths are equal or the length difference is one card


Two-suited in the minor suits:

> 11-15 HCP: Open 2NT
> 16-19 HCP: Open 1 and rebid 3 (Responder will pass, correct to 3, or advance with a good hand.)
> 20-25 HCP: Open 1 and rebid 3 (Responder will pass, correct to 4, or advance with a good hand.)
> Stronger: Open 1 and first rebid 2; over the all but forced 2 response, rebid 2 (suits equal or s longer/stronger) or 2NT (s longer/stronger)


1NT is a very common opening. It frequently creates an anti-field contract or declarer. This is often good (or even very good) because we have beat the opponents to 1NT when that is the highest contract either side can make. When it is bad, we run out if doubled or when undoubled play a ridiculous 1NT contract going down 50 or 100 a trick (usually) into their game or slam. This is sometimes bad when we are down two (or more) vulnerable on a partscore hand. We are learning to pass vulnerable against NV in 4th seat with bad balanced 10-counts. This common opening often acts as an effective preempt. Against aggressive players, we sometimes collect lucrative penalties when holding a good 13-14 point hand if the opponents will not let us "steal the hand."

The weak 2 opening also often gets our table in the anti-field zone. Often, the opponents (or our teammates) opened at the other table putting the opponents at our table in a more difficult spot. Sometimes, a player in our seat opened 3 rather than our 2. Sometimes, their 3 opening helps the players seated against us. Sometimes, the 3 opener is overboard. Naturally, with a suitable hand we can choose to open 3 rather than 2, but we do not do this very often, now. The 2 opening usually does the job well enough.

The 1 and 1 openings are vulnerable to preemption. We have countermeasures similar to those most Big Club bidders deploy. After adverse preemptive action, the fact that our big hands spread across two forcing openings sometimes (but far from always) helps us figure out what is going on slightly better than our counterparts with "normal" Bid Club methods. I suspect we need to spend less time "finding our spot" and more time swinging the axe when opponents preempt over 1 and 1. Sometimes, the 1 opening actually has the effect of a preempt. After the 1 opening on a minimum range minor suit one-suiter, opponents sometimes "preempt" us so effectively that they play a partscore rather than the available (and easy to bid over a natural 1 or 1 opening) major suit game. Such party favors will become less frequent as opponents figure out how to handle the 1 opening.

That is the skeleton. For muscle, connective tissue and skin; see the book posted on line. It is old, but the newest version has not yet made it into the "official" documentation.
:-)

Brian Potter

e-mail: ClioBridgeGuy >at< att >dot< net
URL: Bridge at the Village

Bridge is more than just a card game. It is a cerebral sport. Bridge teaches you logic, reasoning, quick thinking, patience, concentration, and partnership skills.
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#2 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2014-April-19, 09:29

This doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, and I can't open the link.

In particular:

1. When does 1M have a four-card major? It seems that 1M is unbalanced and won't have a longer side suit, but that basically implies five-card major. Yet you talk about the "likely four card major" in the notes.
2. Is 2NT always both minors? You always refer to it as "x-y" but the follow-ups seem to imply minors.
3. I don't understand how this is "shape first" when your 1m openings say nothing about shape and the responses to 1m also say nothing about shape.

Reading through this, it seems very complex (you don't even have a clear explanation of 1/1 to give at the table) and I do not see what the benefits would be. Competitive sequences over 1m seem disastrous, 2NT can preempt your own side, etc. You don't even get the normal benefits of a strong club/diamond because your 1M openings have just as high a maximum as in 2/1. The only real benefit over 2/1 seems to be freeing up the 2 preempt, and your minor suit openings seem like a tangled mess in exchange for this small benefit. Wouldn't it be easier to just play 1 as "either a standard 1 or a standard strong 2" and others as 2/1 if you really want the 2 preempt?
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
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#3 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2014-April-19, 17:34

Here it is....

http://www.bridgeclu...inors_v0385.pdf

Brian, thanks for describing your system. I have the same questions as Adam.

I think my biggest question is why divide your strong hands between 1C and 1D instead of just 1C? Someone with better math skills may tell me just how much information 1D can handle as a percentage of what 1C can handle. But say for sake of argument it's half. So if you put half your strong hands into 1C and the other half into 1D, then half the time partner won't know whether you have a strong hand or not. To avoid this problem, you could just put all your strong hands into 1C.

Because you are kind of wasting responder's first step to both openings. 1D-1H is marking time as is 1C-1D. That's a huge loss. If your 1C were strong and 1D weak, you could have 1D-P (showing a bad hand) or 1D-1H (showing hearts). Or you could go with just a strong diamond system and make your 1C nf (you would have worse strong auctions then and better weak auctions).
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#4 User is offline   WGF_Flame 

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Posted 2014-April-20, 04:11

i love the idea of having both minors as unatural, will read more.
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#5 User is offline   phoenix214 

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Posted 2014-April-20, 04:48

[q]I think my biggest question is why divide your strong hands between 1C and 1D instead of just 1C? Someone with better math skills may tell me just how much information 1D can handle as a percentage of what 1C can handle. But say for sake of argument it's half. So if you put half your strong hands into 1C and the other half into 1D, then half the time partner won't know whether you have a strong hand or not. To avoid this problem, you could just put all your strong hands into 1C.[/q]

Fibonacci sequence. Determine the step till which you want to find out the information say 3NT. From 1H to 3NT there are 13 bids. From 1S to 3NT there are 12 bids. The difference is the 13th number in the Fibonacci sequence if i recall correctly(maybe it was the 12th number) Anyhow the difference is approximately 1,618.
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#6 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2014-April-20, 07:27

So 1D maycontain 61% f the information of 1C. But that's a relay auction through 3N. What adds complication is considering non-relay auctions as well. I don't even know how to pose the question.
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#7 User is offline   akhare 

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Posted 2014-April-20, 11:57

Having briefly browsed through the document, my initial impression is that it's virtually unplayable, especially in competition.

Specifically, given that the 1 opening has a range of 11 - 30 HCPs (sic) and a variety of balanced and unbalanced hands, I don't see any way to sensibly unwind all possible hand types after say 1 - (2). The 1 opening will fare better in competition since it promises 15+ HCPs and appears to have fewer hand types.

Perhaps there are some non-obvious nuances to the system that make it more viable and compelling, but in the interim, it's difficult to overlook the concerns voiced by awm and straube.
foobar on BBO
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#8 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2014-April-20, 13:37

Brian, from the document, with...

A9732 93 AQT3 K3

opener starts with 1C and rebids 2S, but with

KQJT85 AK8 K AJ2

the recommendation is to start with 1D and rebid 1S. This sequence promises 17+, 8+ offensive winners and some number of defensive quick tricks (3.5?)

There's also...

1C-1D, 1N as 20-24

I think these choices were made without regard to the likelihood of how often these sorts of hands come up. A hand like A9732 93 AQT3 K3 is a dime a dozen. I just want to open a spade and bid again as little as I have to. I don't want to show the nature of my hand at 2S. Partner could be short spades. We could have a diamond fit. Etc. And requiring something as solid as KQJT85 AK8 K AJ2 for 1D-1H, 1S means that I'll hardly ever get to use this sequence. For me, I use this sequence when I (as opener) have something mundane like Kxxx Ax KQx xxxx but these hands come up a lot and it's how I find 4-4 major suit fits (amongst other things).

I think way too much emphasis, too, is on 3-suited hands. So 1D-1H, 1S shows the big spade hand but 1D-1H, 2C shows various strength 3-suited. So 1D-1H, 1S and 1D-1H, 2C are spent on pretty rare hands. Same thing 1C-1D, 1H (big heart hand) and 1C-1D, 1S (various 3-suited hands).


You've obviously spent a lot of time developing this system and draw from systems that I am scarcely familiar, but I think the basic approach can't be right.
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#9 User is offline   PrecisionL 

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Posted 2014-April-28, 02:04

Played in 2014 Gatlinburg Regional with this partnership and won bracket 9 (Mon-Tue) for 22.6 ACBL Gold Master Points!

They must be doing some thing's OK.

Thanks Brian and Bill!
Ultra Relay: see Daniel's web page: https://bridgewithda...19/07/Ultra.pdf
C3: Copious Canape is still my favorite system. (Ultra upgraded, PM for notes)

Played Mosca (Nightmare-Fantunes-Millennium like) system with canapé, 11-14 NT.

Santa Fe Precision published 8/19. TOP3 published 11/20. Also Magic experiment (Science Modernized) with Lenzo. 2020: Jan Eric Larsson's Cottontail Club. 2020: C3 Reborn - T-Precision with Relays & 4cd M. BFUN (Bridge For the UNbalanced) 2021: Canape & Strong Relay.
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#10 User is offline   foobar 

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Posted 2014-April-28, 11:46

View PostPrecisionL, on 2014-April-28, 02:04, said:

Played in 2014 Gatlinburg Regional with this partnership and won bracket 9 (Mon-Tue) for 22.6 ACBL Gold Master Points!

They must be doing something's OK.

Thanks Brian and Bill!


Congratulations -- did the team celebrate afterwards with the "Yes, canape can" :D?

On a more serious note, we do hope to hear more from Brian and Bill regarding the system -- hopefully, the initial critique wasn't too harsh.
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#11 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2014-April-28, 12:14

Congratulations all :)
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