[hotShot]

mink, on Mar 5 2005, 12:54 PM, said:

At least maintaining a database of psyches is work, and it could show only the freqency of psyches, which is not very relavant, but the frequency of psyches of the same kind can not be computed easily. I doubt that a tourney director would browse though the hand records when he needs to decide if this psyche was too frequent or not.

Karl

Well if the button was pressed, the information could be displayed to the TD as soon as he joind the table automaticly.

A message like:

Player_1 psyched XXX times when playing with Player_2.

It sure won't cover the use of several nick's, but at least you know, if partner is aware psyching.

[audither]

As a BBO TD and a certified ACBL TD (retired), I will speak my opinion(s)

1. BBO is an international playing site, thus players from 100's of countries are playing. What is STD in the United States, is not necessarly STD everywhere.
In some areas, players are being taught, opening 1 Club with xxxx xxxx xxx xx, is STD. SAYC is not actually a "system" and those who use the ACBL Yellow Card as a guideline, still have to agree on such things as what 2NT / Minor opening is (11-12 or 13-15).

2. Most players (including many very experienced players) don't know what is alertable and what is not. Some examples...
a. 2/1 players who respond 1D to a 1C opening and then Bid 1S / 1H response, have now created a GF auction. in this auction, both 1D and 1S are alertable.
b. Players who use support X's and XX's should alert certain passes, as by agreement, the pass deny's holding support. (an agreement the opps should be notified of)
c. Players who commonly make a "free" bids in competition IE: 1C 1H 1S holding 4 only spades or 1S 2C 2H (nonforcing), should be required to alert these type bids.
d. Stolen bid X's (over interference of a NT opening)

3. Players who are not from the North American continent (and some that are), do not necessarly understand that if playing a system, which has "limited" opening values (besides 11-21), should alert ALL opening bids, and many subsequent bids. IE: Polish Club players, who open 1D/1H/1S feel these bids need no alert as they promise 4 or 5 card suits, but by agreement these hands are limited to 17 HCP (as opposed to 20 or 21 HCP in "STD" ) Using an example, AKx Kxxx AJxx Ax In "STD" this hand would be opened 1D, Polish Club players would open 1C, and French Std may open 2C.

4. While I do not Play many of the Pay-for-Play Tourneys on BBO (only as a sub or if someone is willing to pay my entry), I have not seen much differance in the "directing" between the "pay" tourneys and the "open" tourneys. unalerted or mis alerted bids in the "pay" tourneys, normally get the same answer (many times the same answer as in a ftf tourney), which is PLEASE ALERT IN THE FUTURE, and a player of your experience.....

5. Many of the "open" tourneys on BBO, do not actually have a "director", but have a "host". Many times the "host" is playing, and is normally, so stated in the tourney information. Players know in these types of tourneys, there will be no adjustments, and must endure the bids / non-alerts, of players who either dont know, or dont care to alert.

6. The "open" tourneys where the "host - director" is not playing, may be more controled, but has been stated before, many of these "host-directors" have never seen the LAWS of CONTRACT BRIDGE, or have no clue how to enforce many of the provisions.

7. If the "director" of an open tourney, is made aware of a situation, where bids are not being alerted, players are intentionally "slow" or there is suspect of "too much information", I feel the majority of the "directors", attempt to rectify the situation in a reasonable manner. If those decisions are unacceptable to the player(s), they have several options.
a. They can ask the director to review their concern.
b. They can report the director to BBOabuse (and if action needs to be reviewed, Im sure one of the "yellow" BBO HOSTS will review the situation with the "director" and suggest [warn], the TD, that his/her actions are unacceptable, if the TD is in error, or abusing their position)
c. choose not to play in that TD's tourneys. WE ALL HAVE A CHOICE.

8. As a BBO TD, I "direct" 4 or 5, 28 board tourneys a week. Many of the same players play this tourney daily, and most "know" the "guidelines", of the tourneys I direct. At the beginning of each tourney, announcements are made:

Good Afternoon All - Welcome to LONG ROADS, your daily 28 board tourney. My Name is Audry & I am your Tour Guide Host and Director. I hope all of you read the posted rules, but a quick review 1. ALERT YOUR BIDS 2. BE POLITE 3. SPITE BIDS, or QUITTING in the middle of a round WILL NOT BE TOLLERATED 4.Psyches MUST BE REPORTED TO ME 5. HAVE FUN

TIME IS SET AT 7 MINUTES Per BOARD - THE TIME WILL NOT BE CHANGED unless BBO HAS a HICCUP

ANY SYSTEM MAY BE USED if your bids are ALERTED and EXPLAINED in ENGLISH

IF YOU PLAY PolishClub Precision ACOL Kaplen Sheinwold Moscito (etc) ALERT ALL BIDS

The RULES posted with each Tourney are:

Bridge is a game of RULES and ETHICS - IF you can not abide By the Rules or feel you must gamble or cheat to score well FIND ANOTHER TOURNEY TO PLAY IN.
TIME PERMITTING, the TD will review bids without merit, if the bids made do not merit the cards Held TD MAY ADJUST.
ADJUSTMENS may include, removing a X or XX, or assigning AVG Minus scores to the offending Pair.
The Offended Pair WILL NOT RECIEVE AVG+ but will be protected to an AVERAGE= Score.
LIMITED Psyches are permitted - (see Psyche Rules at end)
PSYCHES of CONVENTIONAL BIDS ARE NOT PERMITTED
If your partnership plays a specific range for a specific bid ie. (1 Club bid = 16+ HCP) 15 HCP 1 Club openings are not permitted, and will recieve a PENALTY.

IF YOU PREFER GAMBLING THERE ARE FREE CASINO SITES YOU CAN LOG ONTO.

NOTE THE TD SPEAKS ONLY ENGLISH IF YOU DO NOT COMMUNICATE IN ENGLISH
THE TD CANNOT HELP YOU AND SUGGEST YOU FIND ANOTHER TOURNEY TO PLAY IN.
IF YOU DONT LIKE HOW I RUN MY TOURNEY OR THE RULINGS I MAKE, I SUGGEST
YOU FIND ANOTHER TOURNEY TO PLAY IN. I DO NOT TOLERATE "SPITE" BIDS
RUDE BEHAVIOR, OR QUITTERS. IF YOU ARE RUDE, OR MAKE A BID TO PUNISH
YOUR PARTNER, YOU WILL BE REMOVED AND EXCLUDED FROM FUTURE LONG ROADS !


LONG ROADS TOURNEYS WILL BE SET AS SURVIVOR FORMAT WITH ZERO SET AS THE DEFAULT IF THE TOURNEY EXCEEDS 40 PAIR, TOURNAMENT MAY BE REDUCED TO 20 TABLES BEGINNING AFTER ROUND 2. SURVIVOR CUTS COULD BE AS MUCH AS 25% AT THE END OF ROUNDs 2 and 3
PLAYERS WISHING TO LEAVE SHOULD LOG OFF AFTER COMPLETING THE ROUND AND WILL NOT BE EXCLUDED FROM FUTURE TOURNEYS FOR DOING SO. PLAYERS LEAVING IN THE MIDDLE OF A ROUND WILL NOT BE PERMITTED TO PLAY IN FUTURE LONG ROADS TOURNEYS WITHOUT APPROVAL FROM THE TD

DO NOT BE RUDE TO YOUR PARTNER OR THE OPPS

DO NOT DISCUSS BIDDING OR PLAY WHILE A HAND IS BEING BID / PLAYED and
USE ENGLISH ONLY TO EXPLAIN NON-STANDARD BIDS.

IF THE SYSTEM REFUSES TO ALLOW YOU TO JOIN MY TOURNEYS..........
(and the tourney is not full) You have probably been BLACKLISTED
This is normally due to leaving My Tourney or Another TD Tourney
Or in generall - Being a JERK at the table - for reconsideration,
leave MAIL for AUDITHER

PLEASE READ WHAT THIS TD CONSIDERS STANDARD BIDS AND ALERT ANYTHING WHICH DOES NOT MEET THESE STANDARDS

STANDARD BIDDING
Minor suit openings should have a minimum of 3 cards in the suit,
IF you NORMALLY open 1C with 2 (1D promises 4) - ALERT! both 1C and 1D openings.
Major suit openings NORMALLY promise 5 cards in 1st & 2nd seats,
IF you NORMALLY open a MAJOR with 4 cards (ACOL STYLE) ALERT! (even if you have 5)
STD. NT openings are 15-17 IF you use any other range ALERT! (even 16-18)
1NT OPENINGS should not contain a singleton or void.
2NT OPENINGS MAY contain a singleton - use your own descretion. Range 20-21
3NT OPENINGS STD! is 24-25 STD! IS NOT GAMBLING 3NT (solid minor)

Bidding 1, 2, or 3NT over a MINOR with a 4 card MAJOR is NON-STD ALERT!
Players using any NON-STD SYSTEMS, MUST PRE-ALERT Prior to any Bids.
This includes, 2/1, Polish C, KS, Precision, ACOL, MULTI, or any others.

PSYCHES and "TATICAL" BIDS are NOT ALERTABLE to the OPPS
IF YOU PSYCHE, or make a "TATICAL" bid, YOU MUST INFORM the TD when the bid
is made, IF a player fails to report his/her own psyche, and the OPPS complain,
the board will be adjusted. YOU ARE ALLOWED ONLY 1 PSYCHE per 10 Boards.
IF you exceed this, you will be REMOVED and BLACKLISTED !

BIDDING MIS-UNDERSTANDINGS and CUE BIDS are NOT PSYCHES - CUE BIDS should be alerted.

^-Board and tourney results can be found at :

{ ^*Hwww.bridgebase.com/myhands^*N }

immediately after the end of the game.

WELCOME GOOD LUCK !

Enjoy

We as volunter "Host" or "TD's" or "directors" do all we can to support BBO and make evey attempt to create tourneys for the players to enjoy, those of us who "direct" donate a condsiderable amount of time to others enjoyment. If we as "host" or "Directors" must also be subject to additional time for appeals, I think most would be willing, but if ALL TD's or HOST's would define their tourneys, post their rules, and enforce their rules 90% of the complaints would cease.

Audither

[the hog]

As has been pointed out, you can run your tournaments any way you like. You have made some reasonable points here and I agree with some of what you posted. However, as you have posted no doubt you are inviting comment -

Requesting alerts of Natural openings such as 1M / 1D in Polish C, or 4 card Ms in natural systems is just plain silly. The same can be said for having to alert 1C (1H) 1S if this can show a 4 card suit. Good heavens man, these are natural bids. It would be FAR more logical to ask players who open 1m on 3 cards to have to alert this as these bids are NOT natural, (not that I am suggesting you do this.)

"Players who are not from the North American continent (and some that are), do not necessarly understand that if playing a system, which has "limited" opening values (besides 11-21), should alert ALL opening bids, and many subsequent bids."

I don't know to what events you are referring here - if you are referring to YOUR rules for YOUR tournaments, however if you are referring to what happens in ftf bridge, this is totally incorrect. A strong C/D bid has to be alerted, but to have to alert a natural opening because it say is from 11-18 or so, is not a requirement in ANY event in which I have played. It is not part of ACBL, EBU or the regulatory organisation of any country of which I am aware. After all, how do you determine what is a GF bid anyway. If you read these forums, you will be aware that there is one guy who opens 2C on virtually anything more than a standard opening- now maybe that is a bid which needs to be alerted

"1NT OPENINGS should not contain a singleton or void.
2NT OPENINGS MAY contain a singleton - use your own descretion. Range 20-21"
To make this distinction is illogical. Why can I not open 1N on K AQxx AQxx Jxxx if I think that this will solve rebid problems? Why allow me to open 2N on the same distribution with a 20 count?

"Bidding 1, 2, or 3NT over a MINOR with a 4 card MAJOR is NON-STD ALERT"

Do you seriously want me alert that 1C 1N can include 4S if I hold
xxxx KJx Kxx Qxx. This is just a straight judgement call.

"2/1 players who respond 1D to a 1C opening and then Bid 1S / 1H response, have now created a GF auction. in this auction, both 1D and 1S are alertable.

This statement, that a gf auction is in place, is not correct unless you are playing Walsh. Walsh is NOT a requirement of 2/1. In either case pre alerts suffice.


The question of psyches -1 pyche per 10 boards - has been discussed ad nauseum, so I will not belabour the point, but you do realise, I suppose that this is against the Laws of the game? Also you run the serious risk of passing UI on to ,y partner. If I psyche on a board, he will know 100% that my bids are trustworthy until 10 boards have elapsed.

Regarding your comments on Appeals Committees - I totally agree with you; to subject volunteer directors to appeal committees is unreasonable, after all, it is not as if we are playing in Natonal champinships. When these eventually do occur on line, then the story may well be different.

Ron

[hrothgar]

audither, on Mar 11 2005, 02:09 AM, said:

2. Most players (including many very experienced players) don't know what is alertable and what is not. Some examples...

3. Players who are not from the North American continent (and some that are), do not necessarly understand that if playing a system, which has "limited" opening values (besides 11-21), should alert ALL opening bids, and many subsequent bids.

Apparantly the same can be said of directors...

Current ACBL Alert regulations are quite explicit that limited opening like a Precision 1♠ opening are not alertable.

I recognize that ACBL alert regulations have little to do most torunaments on BBO, however, given that you were citing your ACBL certification as a qualification is seemed reasonable to comment on your understanding of ACBL alert regs...

[cherdano]

Hi audither,

thanks for your perspective. While I found your post interesting, I strongly disagree with some of your remarks.

audither, on Mar 10 2005, 11:09 PM, said:

As a BBO TD and a certified ACBL TD (retired), I will speak my opinion(s)

2. Most players (including many very experienced players) don't know what is alertable and what is not. Some examples...
a. 2/1 players who respond 1D to a 1C opening and then Bid 1S / 1H response, have now created a GF auction. in this auction, both 1D and 1S are alertable.

3. Players who are not from the North American continent (and some that are), do not necessarly understand that if playing a system, which has "limited" opening values (besides 11-21), should alert ALL opening bids, and many subsequent bids. IE: Polish Club players, who open 1D/1H/1S feel these bids need no alert as they promise 4 or 5 card suits, but by agreement these hands are limited to 17 HCP (as opposed to 20 or 21 HCP in "STD" ) Using an example, AKx Kxxx AJxx Ax In "STD" this hand would be opened 1D, Polish Club players would open 1C, and French Std may open 2C.

I do not know, but I assume you are 100% right as far as ACBL regulations are concerned. However I think you are 99% wrong when you think you can assume this to be a world-wide standard.
Look up the WBF alering rules at http://www.ecatsbridge.com/Documents/wbfin...cy/alerting.asp. It basically says that conventional bids should be alerted, non-conventional bids should not. I doubt you can convince me that a 1♠ promising 5 spades and 11-17 hcp is conventional, and one with 11-21 hcp is not. By the same reasoning a polish player might expect you to alert all 1♠ opening bids that could contain more than 17hcp. Same about a 1♦ opening that promises 4 cards, which is certainly more natural than the SAYC possilibly 3-card openin.
I think if you need to know exactly how many points or which suit length a natural bid promises, you have to ask. No alert procedure will protect you from surprises if you rely on your default assumptions without asking when you need this information.

Arend

[audither]

Its nice to see that someone reads these forums, and I think some of your comments need answers, but I think some questions need to be ask also.

First a comment, this discussion forum concerns what happens on BBO not WBF or ACBL or at your local 10 cent rubber game.

The question, do you direct on BBO, and if so are all your players world class ?
because if your running open tourneys, where any level may play, and the type problems adressed here are not a problem in your tourneys, we all want to play in them.

Requesting alerts of Natural openings such as 1M / 1D in Polish C, or 4 card Ms in natural systems is just plain silly. The same can be said for having to alert 1C (1H) 1S if this can show a 4 card suit. Good heavens man, these are natural bids. It would be FAR more logical to ask players who open 1m on 3 cards to have to alert this as these bids are NOT natural, (not that I am suggesting you do this.)

If players are familier with all the various systems being played, there would be no need to ever alert anything. we would all just pre-alert and it would be done with. Unfortunatly, when you have Experienced players, playing against novice, players there is always going to be a disparity in the level of play. The systems being used by some of these players are totaly foriegn to some players, and as they evaluate their own cards, they have a right to know if a bid promises or denys certain hand patterns, or specific point ranges. Bridge is a game of skill, it was never intended to be a game where special meanings were given to some calls and the opponents not have the right to know what those calls represent.

I don't know to what events you are referring here - if you are referring to YOUR rules for YOUR tournaments, however if you are referring to what happens in ftf bridge, this is totally incorrect. A strong C/D bid has to be alerted, but to have to alert a natural opening because it say is from 11-18 or so, is not a requirement in ANY event in which I have played. It is not part of ACBL, EBU or the regulatory organisation of any country of which I am aware. After all, how do you determine what is a GF bid anyway. If you read these forums, you will be aware that there is one guy who opens 2C on virtually anything more than a standard opening- now maybe that is a bid which needs to be alerted

this discussion forum concerns what happens on BBO not WBF or ACBL or at your local 10 cent rubber game.


To make this distinction is illogical. Why can I not open 1N on K AQxx AQxx Jxxx if I think that this will solve rebid problems? Why allow me to open 2N on the same distribution with a 20 count?

NO ONE SAID YOU CAN'T OPEN 1NT WITH A STIFF
the wording is should not. If you NORMALLY open 1NT with a Stiff - ALERT !

Do you seriously want me alert that 1C 1N can include 4S if I hold
xxxx KJx Kxx Qxx. This is just a straight judgement call.

The hand you describe is very common, but if your partner is aware you will bid 1NT holding 4S it should be alerted. If your partner assumes you have no major suit and continues the auction (or passes) based on your "denial" of a major there is no harm.

The question of psyches -1 pyche per 10 boards - has been discussed ad nauseum, so I will not belabour the point, but you do realise, I suppose that this is against the Laws of the game? Also you run the serious risk of passing UI on to ,y partner. If I psyche on a board, he will know 100% that my bids are trustworthy until 10 boards have elapsed.

Psyches are a part of bridge, they are legal (as long as you do not psyche a conventional bid and your Pd is not aware of a "tendacy"). The problem with psyches, if allowed to be rampid, players get very upset, and many times will refuse to continue play (on that board or any boards left against the psycher). This becomes a HUGE headache for the TD, with options of either subbing the player out (who refuses to play), or assigning adjustments to the board(s)(at which point the players will quit). When you are directing a 3 1/2 hor tourney with 40-50 tables in play, you dont have time to babysit 1 table.

I recognize that ACBL alert regulations have little to do most torunaments on BBO, however, given that you were citing your ACBL certification as a qualification is seemed reasonable to comment on your understanding of ACBL alert regs


I retired from active ACBL directing several years ago, ACBL changes its alert procedure evey time the wind changes direction. Many players I know have quit playing ACBL because of their lack of consistancy. (or maybe consistantly inconsistant is a better term)

[ellie26]

I believe in an orderly lifestyle, and therefore believe in following the rules. Even the DOG is expected to follow the rules in my household.

We are members of ACBL because we believe and have faith in the way the organization is managed. We have rules to follow and guidelines that are accessible. Therefore, I think all ACBL games should have an appeals committee. The reason that we pay to play in ACBL is because we expect the game to be run as described by the ACBL Laws of bridge. If not, there should be a device in place for appeals. This has nothing to do to embarass a TD or make anyone look bad. It is a learning process.

Why are so many so afraid of being criticized for making a mistake? Only those who do nothing make no mistakes.

Oh, I do tend to forget that many are on the chase for ACBL masterpoints, and they really don't care how they accumulate them. Perhaps a category to segregate these people is in order, lol... only kidding !!

ellie

[rigour6]

I find this thread most interesting and enjoy the comments and suggestions. Here's my 2 cents:

1) As the WORST TD on BBO, maybe it's only worth 1.5 cents.

2) People who play in my tourneys had better have come to play, not compete. The tourney is just a way to organize some people all playing together so that they can get a score which presumably adds to their enjoyment. If you actually care how well you do, you are in the wrong place.

3) I think an AC would be OK, except for the time factor. By the time you get the results of the appeal, no-one will even remember, and fewer will care.

4) If you scare TDs, you will end up with fewer tourneys, which isn't good.

5) If there are abusive or really horrible TDs, obviously you have to deal with them. Said the guy first up against the wall come the revolution.

6) If there's some consistent ruling which TDs are a) getting wrong or b ) having trouble with, I for one would love to have a) a webpage or b ) a message which described it. Let idiot TDs like me learn in a no-fail environment and you may find an improvement in the rulings at little cost.

7) Last but not least, I once had a dog who was really dumb, and I once had a girlfriend who wasn't too bright either but had really nice sweaters. And I loved both of them. Just because a TD doesn't get rulings right doesn't mean their tourneys can't be efficiently run, smooth, and fun to play in. To quote Harvey: "My mother once told me that if you want to get along in this world, you have to be very clever or very polite. For years I was clever. I recommend polite. " I'd rather play in a nice TD's tourney than a smart one's.

[Gerben42]

Wow! There's a lot to respond to. I am also a club TD and recently I hosted my 1st BBO tourney.

First Fred's comments:

Quote

1) ACs do not produce better rulings than TDs in "real life" tournaments (my opinion)

2) ACs cause bad feelings and controversy in real life tournaments (fact)

3) Most of our players would prefer to live with the occasional bad ruling (these things tend to even out in the long run) than have to wait (possibly hours) before seeing where they finished in a tourney (my opinion)

@1: that may be true but I wouldn't want to give the TD the final word either.

@2: so do rulings by bad directors.

@3: Sometimes injustice has been done and although it might even out in the long run, for people who do not get into the prize money that often there is no long run. I wouldn't want a final word of a bad TD take away someone's very first tournament win for example.

My opinion is that you NEED a way to appeal in all tournaments where you can win significant prizes. An exception can be made for tournaments with a staff of several top class TDs who have taken the decision by working together.

BBO does not (yet) host tournaments where you can win great prizes so I do not think we need an appeal committee. You pay nothing or just $1 to play a tourney, you can hardly win anything, no AC.

But a regional tourney with 1 TD and a first prize of say $100 per person and $15 per person entry needs an AC for example.

***************************
Alerting in BBO:

It is my opinion that in BBO one should follow the INTERNATIONAL alerting rules (as they are with screens). This does not include alerting limited Precision / Polish Club natural opening 1-bids. I would expect people to have a CC posted. If this is really not possible then say before you start the round what the basic system is.

For everyone I want to have said that I really dislike people writing in their Tourney Description "No Polish Club" and such.

POLISH CLUB IS NOT AN EVIL SYSTEM IT IS A VERY NATURAL SYSTEM!!!

****************************
Some final remark: Please do not take the play on BBO too seriously. There is nothing material to win here, however you can win experience and friends.