[Chamaco]

Hi all,
I would like to ask suggestions about the following scheme after strong C (16+)overcalled at level 1.

What do you like/dislike of the following ?

1C-(1H)- ?

a. new suit at level 1 = 1R force, 5-7 OR 12+
b. 1NT = xfer to clubs, 5-7/12+
c. 2C = xfer to D, 5-7/12+
d. 2D = ??? = could it be stop ask in xfer ?
e. 2H = ???? could it be psyche-exposing ?
f. hi power/low power = 5-7 with right shape (short in H no wasted values) or any 8-11


The scheme would be the same for any overcall at 1 level:
1- xfers are on from 1NT to step below 2 of opps suit and show weak/slammish hand; same for new suit at 1 level, nat.
2- double includes 8-11 or 5-7 balanced with decent shape

We still have to define whether 2NT should be used similarly after 2-level overcalls

[luke warm]

mauro, what are your responses with no interference? if controls, do you want to abandon them because of the overcall? that's the main question, i think

i didn't notice 'double' (unless it's the last option)... i guess anything you choose to do can work out ok, as long as it covers whatever you want covered... we keep the control responses up to an overcall of 2c... after than they're off... since it's hard to 'like' something else over something you're used to, i guess i like keeping the system intact for as long as possible ... but that's mere preference (and style, and habit, etc)

probably you need to get together and ask what it is you want to know *first* after an overcall... if shape, bid that... if points, bid that... if controls, figure out how to bid that... all based on what the two of you decide is most important to know

[Free]

I don't see the big advantage of changing the system because of an intervention. Why not play following:

pass = the original 1♦ bid
     Dbl = opener bids 1♥ like the bidding was 1♣-1♦-1♥
     other = like opps didn't bid and the bidding was 1♣-1♦-...
Dbl = the original 1♥ bid
1♠ and higher = original system

Same goes for a 1♦ overcall, or a Dbl, but there you even get extra space to show strength or shape. Dbl gives away 2 bids, 1♦ gives away 1 bid.

[Chamaco]

Quote

mauro, what are your responses with no interference? if controls, do you want to abandon them because of the overcall? that's the main question, i think

Yes, in competition, I believe there is a strong urge to communicate shape, and frequency issues make me lean towards being able to show immedialy 5-7 hcp hands :-)

Quote

i didn't notice 'double' (unless it's the last option

Double = hi power/low power = 5-7 hcp bal with right shape (neg double), or 8-11 any shape

[Chamaco]

Free, on Feb 6 2005, 04:07 PM, said:

I don't see the big advantage of changing the system because of an intervention.

Ty Frederic, your proposal is interesting.

But could you comment on the set of responses I listed, do you have any specific criticism or appreciations on the scheme ?

------

As regards to your question, I am no authority, but there are indeed many experts (e.g. Wei-Radin: "Precision 1 Club Complete") who do alter the system after opps overcalls.

The point is, after opps overcalls I have found that often the auction is unpleasant (at least to me ! ) if responder cannot immediately show the shape of his 5-7 hand.

However this is not the main point of this post, and I much rather prefer to have your detailed opinion on this system rather than starting a phylosophycal discussion on whether changing the responses after overcalls is good or not

[whereagles]

A friend of mine plays transfers in this situation. With 5-6+ he starts transferring. Opener fills the transfer with 19+ (game forcing, not necessarily with fit) or bids something else showing 16-18.

[Free]

Chamaco, on Feb 6 2005, 05:17 PM, said:

Free, on Feb 6 2005, 04:07 PM, said:

I don't see the big advantage of changing the system because of an intervention.

Ty Frederic, this is interesting.

But could you comment on the set of responses I listed, do you have any specific criticism or appreciations on the scheme ?

Ok, here you go :

Imo, the ranges are quite nice, since opener with 19+ will super accept or something and you'll probably have slam when responder has his strong version. However, this is where I can't say if your system is playable: what does opener bid with extra strength or a total misfit, and how does the responder continue to show the different strengths AND his second suit?

The first round of bidding will probably work out just fine, but further continuations might suffer a lot...

[Chamaco]

Thx a lot,
the observation is very helpful !

Quote

However, this is where I can't say if your system is playable: what does opener bid with extra strength or a total misfit,

What do you think like that:
minimum opener completes xfer, max opener refuses xfer

Quote

and how does the responder continue to show the different strengths AND his second suit?

Hmmm tougher...
Responder might cue opps suit to show slammish hand ?
With 2 suiter he may make a picture jump at the 2 level ?

[the hog]

Mauro, I now play what Marston plays because I think this is an excellent idea
If they intervene up to and inc 2D

X = bal 6-9
bids except 1NT are 2 under transfers:

First 4 suit bids: 2 step transfers. Opener bids step with misfit minimum, accepts transfer with tolerance and minimum, or else bids higher. To transfer into their shown suit is GF balanced eg 1C (1S) 2D = GF balanced. Opener bids step as stayman. (now cue = no Major), and cue again asks for stopper.

Ron

[Free]

The_Hog, on Feb 7 2005, 07:44 AM, said:

Mauro, I now play what Marston plays because I think this is an excellent idea
If they intervene up to and inc 2D

X = bal 6-9
bids except 1NT are 2 under transfers:

First 4 suit bids: 2 step transfers. Opener bids step with misfit minimum, accepts transfer with tolerance and minimum, or else bids higher. To transfer into their shown suit is GF balanced eg 1C (1S) 2D = GF balanced. Opener bids step as stayman. (now cue = no Major), and cue again asks for stopper.

Ron

Interesting. But what do you do with 4441's (semipositives and GF)? Do you treat them as balanced?

[the hog]

4441s are treated as balanced. Transfers are 6+ hcp. So after opener's 1 step min we scramble for a fit if we don't have gf values. Resp cues or jumps with the 9+ hands.

[Chamaco]

The_Hog, on Feb 7 2005, 06:44 AM, said:

Mauro, I now play what Marston plays because I think this is an excellent idea
If they intervene up to and inc 2D

X = bal 6-9
bids except 1NT are 2 under transfers:

Ty Ron !

What does 1NT mean in this scheme ?

[cwiggins]

The_Hog, on Feb 7 2005, 06:44 AM, said:

Mauro, I now play what Marston plays because I think this is an excellent idea
If they intervene up to and inc 2D

X = bal 6-9
bids except 1NT are 2 under transfers:

First 4 suit bids: 2 step transfers. Opener bids step with misfit minimum, accepts transfer with tolerance and minimum, or else bids higher. To transfer into their shown suit is GF balanced eg 1C (1S) 2D = GF balanced. Opener bids step as stayman. (now cue = no Major), and cue again asks for stopper.

Ron

I like the idea. I have some follow ups.

If the opponent's bid shows two suits, neither of which are named (e.g. a CRASH scheme), presumably all suits are double transfers? What do you do with GF balanced hands?

If the opponent's bid shows two specific suits (e.g. the majors), what do transfers into their two suits mean?

How do you expose psychs of a suit?

Lastly, over a natural 2D, do the bids mean:
2H = transfer to clubs
2S = transfer to diamonds = balanced GF
2NT = natural?
3C = hearts
3D = spades

If so, it seems that the three level transfers for hearts and spades are so high as to require GF strength.

[the hog]

Mauro, 1N is natural.
Chris, if opps show 2 suits X = bal gf
Psyches are exposed by waituing for a x

Lastly, over a natural 2D, do the bids mean:
2H = transfer to clubs
2S = transfer to diamonds = balanced GF
2NT = natural?
3C = hearts
3D = spades
Yes these high levels are gfs

[Chamaco]

The_Hog, on Feb 8 2005, 05:17 AM, said:

Mauro, 1N is natural.

1NT natural ok, but what is the suggested hcp range ?

- 5-7 NF
- 1R force, 5-7/12+ bal
- 8-11, GF limited
- 8-13, GF limited (wider range- use other bid for GF 14+ bal)
- 8-10/14+GF, minimax (use other bids for 11-13)
- 8+ generic GF, unlimited
- other

[the hog]

5-7 nf

[bhtf]

interesting, interesting, as usual

a simplest Trans Way :

1♣-(1♥)- ?
X = ♠ 4+, 5-6HCP and more
1♠ = trans for NT witout ♥ control, OR trans for ♣
1NT = natural 5-7. Then system on [Staym, Transf]
2♣ = trans for ♦, 5-6HCP and more
2♦ = trans ♥ anti-psy FG (with 5-7 : Pass or 1NT)
2♥ = ♠ 5+ FG
2♠ = same of 1♠ but FG
2NT = natural FG. System on.

and similar on all obstructions to 3♠ last transfert.

if ops : 4♣ or more :
-- forcing pass
-- Neg Double
-- all others Nat and for play if flat like 15-18 in opener hand.