[lycier]

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As we know,GIB usually respond with 6hcp at one level,but for this hand,I got a bad contract,who's wrong?

[Stephen Tu]

Six "points" is the standard taught to beginners to respond at the one level, not six "high card points". You should add points for good shape like 6-4 which increases trick taking power. Passing with the same 5 pts but balanced would be normal. Bidding has the upside of reaching some making games if partner fits well, and also of reaching a better suit to play in (it's not like playing in 5-1 heart fit is all that fun). And if you end up minus it's not necessarily bad if the opponents can make something, or if 1H was going to be passed out but also failing. Bidding can sometimes talk the opponents out of bidding their own game which works well even if you end up going down several tricks.

It's kind of normal to raise to 2s with South instead of bidding 2 diamonds; 2s limits the hand better and often finds a 5-3 fit, and even 4-3 does OK with club ruffs taken in the 3 cd trump hand. This should fail by a few tricks on this hand also, but really it's not all that big a deal as E/W can make 1nt.

As for GIB's bidding, the question is mainly whether to pass, bid 1 spade, or conceal the spades and bid 1nt (the last of which is the most effective way to get to a club partial which is probably the best, but will often have to be at the 3 level. Bidding 1 spade makes it near impossible to get to a club partial since clubs will be 4th suit forcing on a lot of continuations. Bidding 1nt, one can pass 2 clubs if partner bids it, or bid 3c and have it be natural. But it does lose some 4-4 spade fits.

[lycier]

Quote

You should add points for good shape like 6-4 which increases trick taking power.

I am confused about what you said,length points can't often increase trick taking power if without fit.I remember Max Hardy had ever said that the tricks depand on suits fit,the amounts of tricks depand on the extent of suits fit.
So without fit,without tricks.

[Stephen Tu]

lycier, on 2014-March-22, 21:23, said:

I am confused about what you said,length points can't often increase trick taking power if without fit.I remember Max Hardy had ever said that the tricks depand on suits fit,the amounts of tricks depand on the extent of suits fit.
So without fit,without tricks.

Length definitely helps take tricks if you make your long suit trumps. Even without 8 cd fit. Surely you can see that if you play in clubs on this hand, even in not 8 cd fit, responder can take 3 tricks in the club suit. Whereas in a red suit contract, responder takes zero club tricks. There's a general rule of thumb that you should try to play in the weaker hand's long suit not having a good fit elsewhere. That way you get to take tricks in the long suit and high cards from the stronger hand. Whereas if you play in the strong hand's long suit the weak hand doesn't have much in high cards to contribute. So it's usually right to count some length points using that metric, given that you are usually going to try to make that long suit trumps (GIB doesn't really do this properly IMO, it only counts short suit points, but short suits are usually a reflection of length somewhere else so sometimes it works out sort of correct).

On the other hand, short suit points don't really help much without a fit, and big fits (9, 10 cds) amplify the power of ruffing values. Like here you can't really ruff red suit in dummy because the opponents can draw trumps; this is partially caused by lack of fit, with a real fit dummy would more often have enough trumps to ruff something. So some people like Root taught to count length points initially before finding a fit, then add some more for shortness if you find a fit & depending on degree of fit, when not playing in NT. Everything's all an approximation anyway, adding points for distribution is just an estimation of additional trick taking power beyond just high cards.

And if you don't bid, you lose the chance to potentially find a fit in a black suit, and to make the club suit trumps (which argues for 1nt instead of 1s).

[lycier]

what's the result of ugly contract?where is the tricks taking power? so I should say GIB pass is always an option without opening suit fit,even though with possible invalid length points.
As Meckwell said : Judgement allowed in any situation.

[Stephen Tu]

lycier, on 2014-March-22, 22:39, said:

what's the result of ugly contract?where is the tricks taking power? so I should say GIB pass is always an option without opening suit fit,even though with possible invalid length points.
As Meckwell said : Judgement allowed in any situation.

Look, it's E/W's hand. They can declare and make, or defend and go plus. Just because N/S are doomed to go minus on this hand is not at all proof of your assertion that it is wrong to bid! 1 Heart also fails. 3 clubs, despite being 2 levels higher, doesn't do any worse than 1 heart. If you pass, the opponents will just go plus in NT! In fact they can make 3nt unless South leads a stiff club (unlikely) and N/S defend perfectly. So bidding quite likely works out better than passing, passing tends to lead to -150 or -400, bidding you can often get out for minus two in 3 clubs if 1nt was chosen.

Passing just because you don't fit partner's opening suit is terrible bridge. It's too soon to assume a misfit. What if South had 1534/1543 shape, etc.? Any hand with 2 clubs? Often you can make 3 clubs when 1 heart fails. Or make 3c when opps make something. Or go down 1 in 3c when the opps make something. All these things are perfectly fine results. Even this hand going down is perfectly fine result, and you don't improve anything by passing 1 heart!

[1eyedjack]

There are some bad things rhat can happen by bidding.

1) Opps may elect to defend a doubled miisfit partscore when left to 1H they might have defended undoubled (or declared their own partscore)

2) Opener may decide that he has enough extras to reverse or jump rebid. If that is on a misfit you could be in a world of hurt when 1H was making.

3) If opener can rely on responder having a floor of high card values below which he will not stoop, there are some benefits for when responder actually bids.

4) If you choose to pass on those occasions where the hand belongs your way but in another suit, opponents have a habit of balancing. There are no guarantees, either that they will balance or that having balanced they will provide you with space to show your hand. But *IF* those conditions come to pass then when responder does come out of the bushes he will have limited his hand more precisely than by an immediate initial response.

If we take Stephen's argument to its logical conclusion without factoring in these downsides we should all be routinely responding on a misfitting yarborough. We don't, because there comes a tipping point in favour of passing.

On the cusp of that tipping point any particular hand could work better either way (or sometimes it will not make any difference). I don't think that there is a lot productive that you can say other than that it is on the cusp.

Personally I would have responded 1N on this hand. Aside from the increased likelihood of finding Clubs, opponents may assume that I do not hold 4 spades, which could be costly for them.