[doofik]

I was playing against a pair who announced that they play Blue Club. And without showing you the hand, I would like to know the meaning of a certain sequence,

The bidding is:

1♠-p-2♥-p-2NT-p-3NT

Please explain to me the meaning of 2♥ as I'm totally lost.

Thank you in advance,
Jola

P.S. 1♠ bid was made in first position.

[keylime]

1♠-2♥ is a GF (spades may be on a four bagger). It's forcing to I think 2NT.

If memory serves, balanced hands that offer both four card majors are opened 1♥ regardless of suit texture. With unbalanced hands that are 2 or 3 suited same principle applies.

So by implication the 1S bidder is denying heart fit by the rebid of 2NT. Since spade support wasn't coming I'm pegging the 1S bidder on a 4-2-x-x and the 2H bidder on a 2-4/5-x-x shape.

That's my best guess, but my BTC is very rusty.

[inquiry]

Well, whatever it is, I don't think I play i thte same way these guys did...

I play 2H as 5 card suit with most all hcp in that suit, and limited value, 3-6 hcp. But if they played htis way, 2NT asked about quality of hte suit, and 3NT isn't a normal response.

Ben

[doofik]

Thanks Dwayne, your response is not quite what I had in mind:-)

[doofik]

Dear Ben,

Thank you for your response. Now my question is, is there anywhere in the Blue Club system a response that would indicate 3+ hearts and be forcing for 1 round? That's the explanation I got and I'm just sooooooooooooooooo confused.

Jola

[the hog]

Canape response with a longer outside suit. Not typical of Blue Club - more Roman Club. These guys had their terminology incorrect.

[doofik]

Here's the hand:

North

♠AK10x
♥5
♦KJ10x
♣A8xx


South
♠7xx
♥AQJ9x
♦A9xx
♣2

The bidding drives me nuts, or perhaps not the bidding, but the explanation.

[luke warm]

doesn't seem to be roman then, i believe they open 2C with that...

[mike777]

The explanation seems 100% correct to me. 2h is not 100% game force but is one round forcing. If responder has a game force hand then 2h, in theory, may only be a 3 card suit with often an A or K and responder can reverse into strong suit. If not a game force hand, then this hand is very typical max.

[hrothgar]

Apparantly many of the people answering this thread don't actually play Blue Club...

Comment 1: Playing Classic Blue Club, a 2/1 response establishes a force to 2NT. It is explictly NOT game foricng.

Comment 2: Playing Blue Club, responder the 2/1 response is a conventional bid. The response typically shows EITHER a natural 2/1 response OR a variety of strong hand types with primary support for Opener's major. Playing a "standard" system, these hands would be shown via a 2NT response. (recall that the auction 1S - 2N is used as a natural and non-forcing bid)

Comment 3: Following a 1S opening, its very rare that a 2H response would be made with a "prepared" hand. Its far more likely that responder would chose a prepared 2C or 2D response.

Hrothgar

Who used to play a LOT of Blue CLub before he migrated to MOSCITO

[inquiry]

sorry.. i read teh auction as 1C - P - 2H

explains my earlier answer

[paulg]

My copy of Garrozo's Blue Club (English version!) suggests that the explanations were technically correct, although it does not explicitly cover the 1♠-2♥ sequence.

However, as Richard says, it is very rare to canape with hearts as it is not necessary for responder to introduce a 4-card heart suit unless opener does. So, in practice, it is usual that 2♥ shows a 5-card suit.

This is less true if people are not playing strong jump shifts, when 3-card canape may be required with a strong minor - but this is not the case with the original Blue.

Perhaps the only time I've responded 2♥ with a 4-card suit is something like:

♠ Axx
♥ AQxx
♦ KJTxxx
♣ x

With so many systems employed on BBO it is inevitable that we shall see unfamiliar sequences. At least these opponents were trying to help and there is a limit on how much disclosure can fit in the Alert box. You can always chat for more information.

Following the 2NT rebid, it is clear that systemically this is an invitational hand with 5+ hearts. Technically an alert is not needed for this, but if I had alerted 2♥ as 3+ then it would be preferable to explain that it was natural with the 2NT rebid - I guess opps just forgot to do this as it is so familiar to them.

Paul

[doofik]

Thank you for your responses and my question is, I guess, what kind of hand would produce a 2♥ response to 1♠ while having only a 3 card suit? And I do understand the 1-round force:-)

doofik

[doofik]

I have a bet riding on this;-) Please advise:-)

[hrothgar]

doofik, on Feb 6 2005, 12:13 AM, said:

Thank you for your responses and my question is, I guess, what kind of hand would produce a 2♥ response to 1♠ while having only a 3 card suit? And I do understand the 1-round force:-)

doofik

Rssponder would most likely hold a hand with

1. Primary Spade support (4+ cards)
2. At least slam invitational values
3. No first/second round controls in Clubs or Diamonds

♠ AQ632
♥ AK5
♦ Q73
♣ 84

or

♠ KQ52
♥ AQ4
♦ Q52
♣ QT8

look about right

[keylime]

Good thing I provided disclaimer on my stab at it lololol -

Funny that this topic was mentioned; there is a pair here locally (currently in Calgary on assignment) that plays the BTC that comes off the the mirrored site of Dan O'Neill's <sp> web portal, with some tweaks. Their agreement is 4+ hearts, natural, could be canape.

I'm starting to like this four card major stuff....

[TimG]

doofik, on Feb 4 2005, 06:37 PM, said:

Dear Ben,

Thank you for your response. Now my question is, is there anywhere in the Blue Club system a response that would indicate 3+ hearts and be forcing for 1 round? That's the explanation I got and I'm just sooooooooooooooooo confused.

Jola

Blue Team Club used canape by responder as well as opener. So, when the 2♥ response was made, it indicated 3+ hearts. The 3NT rebid should have clarified that the response showed 5+ hearts, if responder had only 3 hearts he would have bid his long suit next.

Tim

[TimG]

hrothgar, on Feb 7 2005, 12:09 PM, said:

doofik, on Feb 6 2005, 12:13 AM, said:

Thank you for your responses and my question is, I guess, what kind of hand would produce a 2♥ response to 1♠ while having only a 3 card suit?  And I do understand the 1-round force:-)

doofik

Rssponder would most likely hold a hand with

1. Primary Spade support (4+ cards)
2. At least slam invitational values
3. No first/second round controls in Clubs or Diamonds

♠ AQ632
♥ AK5
♦ Q73
♣ 84

or

♠ KQ52
♥ AQ4
♦ Q52
♣ QT8

look about right

Richard,

Perhaps I'll dig out my Blue team books tonight and do a little research, but as I recall, respond established a game force by bidding his suits in canape sequence. So, a sequence like 1S-2C; 2S-3H showed 5+ hearts and a game force with clubs being at least a fragment.

The artificial raise type hands would first respond 2m and then jump to 4m. The order in which the minors were bid indicated what kinds of controls responder holds in the minors. Responder could also canape into opener's suit, and there was a sequence to uncover a super fit when responder started with a fragment, preparing to canape, and opener canaped into reposnder's real suit.

Tim

[hrothgar]

TimG, on Feb 8 2005, 02:39 AM, said:

hrothgar, on Feb 7 2005, 12:09 PM, said:

doofik, on Feb 6 2005, 12:13 AM, said:

Thank you for your responses and my question is, I guess, what kind of hand would produce a 2♥ response to 1♠ while having only a 3 card suit?  And I do understand the 1-round force:-)

doofik

Rssponder would most likely hold a hand with

1. Primary Spade support (4+ cards)
2. At least slam invitational values
3. No first/second round controls in Clubs or Diamonds

♠ AQ632
♥ AK5
♦ Q73
♣ 84

or

♠ KQ52
♥ AQ4
♦ Q52
♣ QT8

look about right

Richard,

Perhaps I'll dig out my Blue team books tonight and do a little research, but as I recall, respond established a game force by bidding his suits in canape sequence. So, a sequence like 1S-2C; 2S-3H showed 5+ hearts and a game force with clubs being at least a fragment.

The artificial raise type hands would first respond 2m and then jump to 4m. The order in which the minors were bid indicated what kinds of controls responder holds in the minors. Responder could also canape into opener's suit, and there was a sequence to uncover a super fit when responder started with a fragment, preparing to canape, and opener canaped into reposnder's real suit.

Tim

Hi Tim

Blue Club featured conventional 2♣/2♦ responses to major suit openings.

Sequences like

1♠ - 2♣
2♠ - 4♣

were uses to show a slam invitational 4 card raise with 1st or 2nd round controls in clubs and denying any Dimond control. Auctions like

1♥ - 2♣
2N - 4♦

Promises 4 card heart support and either first round control in both minors or secnd round control in both minors.

On occassion, responder would make a canape style 2/1 response. As you noted, canape by responder was used to create an absolute game force. The canape sequence typically showed sufficient strength for a strong jump shirt, however, denied a sufficeint suit strength for the SJS.

The 1♠ - 2♥ auction is "special" since responder would need to show his second suit at the three level. Playing Blue CLub, 4th suit was artifical and forcing at the 2 level and natural and game foricng at the three level. As I recall, this sequence could be canape but promised at least 4 hearts...