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Moysian fit at Game level convert to game

#1 User is offline   vodkagirl 

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Posted 2014-May-05, 11:19



I hope Partner will become my regular partner. We are both playing 2/1.

My 1 was a mistake I usually show the major when I only have enough points for one bid.

My 3 is asking for the stop showing a willingness to play in 3N after partner reverses.

Eventually, when partner puts me into 4 I decide to play in the Moysian fit for game. If we are contracting to win 10 tricks then it may as well be in game.

It is this last decision that I would like feed back on.

Though, if other points of interest are noted, then please raise them.

Many thanks for your replies.
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#2 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2014-May-05, 11:28

I see two points against 4H:

1. Are you 100% pard will take 4 as a proposal to play the moysian? If he takes it as some sort of cue, there's no telling what can happen.

2. Even if (1) isn't a problem, I'm not sure I'd "propose to pard" on such a moth-eaten suit. Besides, isn't it better to leave it at 4? It's far from clear a game makes (any game).


As a plus, if pard has say AKQx it might very well be the only game that makes.
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#3 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2014-May-05, 11:39

You mentioned already the serendipity of failing to respond 1S and knocking the opponents out of the box for an unimpeded auction, so that doesn't need to be belabored by me.

Here, you can predict that the Moysian fit will work out badly. If you had only 3 Spades, you could conceivably use the Moyse Coup by pitching on 3 rounds of spades and maintain control for ten tricks. But, with four of them, I would look for 5m. Maybe partner is 0-4-3-6, so I will try 5C. Partner should convert to 5D if she has 0-4-4-5 or has misbid with 1-4-4-4.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#4 User is offline   Bbradley62 

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Posted 2014-May-05, 11:59

Given that you have 4 spades, and presuming that opps have at least 8 spades for their bidding, did you bid 3 hoping that partner would bid 3NT holding the singleton A? Unlike the prior two respondents, I like your logic of the 4 bid (given that you're already higher than you should be) because, as Agua points out, partner might have only three diamonds so you might as well get a game bonus if your stars align. You didn't mention form of scoring, but I'm not sure it matters.
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#5 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2014-May-05, 12:20

Playing in 4H you expect the defence to start with 2 rounds of Spades, tapping the longer trump holding and wresting from you control of trumps. Although a level higher, if committed to a moysian I would rather be in 5D than 4H. 5C also has attractions because you may be able to stand the Spade force.

But frankly I think that 3S is an overbid. The hand reeks of a misfit. You have already shown 5 (6?) of your 8 HCP when responding, you have bid where your values lie, and it is vanishingly unlikely that partner has any help in Spades. I would just pass over 2S and see what partner does. Passing gives him maximum space to choose.
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#6 User is offline   Bbradley62 

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Posted 2014-May-05, 17:14

Of course, there's also the consideration that if 4 of either red suit is too high, you might want to stay in the minor since you're less likely to get doubled there.
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#7 User is offline   srw103 

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Posted 2014-May-05, 23:53

I do not quite understand the 3 bid. If partner has a stop (very unlikely) they are likely to go off 3-5 in 2S and yet there may not be a game for us. Even if he has no stop - 2X could be best. You rather need some agreements on pass and dbl after opps bid and raise here.

I think everything has been said about a Moysian with no -shortage in the short trump hand.
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#8 User is offline   vodkagirl 

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Posted 2014-May-06, 07:48

View PostBbradley62, on 2014-May-05, 11:59, said:

Given that you have 4 spades, and presuming that opps have at least 8 spades for their bidding, did you bid 3 hoping that partner would bid 3NT holding the singleton A?


Clearly, my thinking had broken down at this point.
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#9 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2014-May-06, 13:18

Picking up on swr103's point, a good time to look for (or consider) a moysian is when you are ruffing in the short trump hand. On this deal it is obviously the wrong way round, playing in hearts, hence 1eyedjack's comment that a moysian in diamonds is better.
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#10 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2014-May-06, 18:19

What do we 'know' by the time 2 comes around to us? I put quote marks there because much of what we do at bridge is based on inferences, of varying levels of assurance. At times we depend not only on assumptions about partner's skill level and tendencies but also the opps.

With that in mind, we can 'know' or infer that partner has extras and an unbalanced hand, most commonly 1=4=3=5, but with other variations such as 0=4=3=6, 1=5=1=6, and so on, and with 5 hearts need not have a huge hand.

We can almost eliminate hearts as a destination, unless partner has 5 of them, and he'll usually be able to tell us that if we give him a chance.

Over 2 we have options, and I would reason more or less as follows, having already thought of the above points:

1. We likely have a good chance of beating them, and possibly a lot. Consider x AKxx xxx AKxxx for a 1=4=3=5 hand, and he has a better hand than that for a reverse. You'd almost always be beating them and what can you make? A part score in a minor, maybe. This suggests double, even if it is played as purely penalty.

Most advanced players, and beyond, would take a low level double of a suit bid and raised as showing a desire to compete, with no clear direction, and allowing for penalty conversion.

However, on this hand, there is no chance that partner will pass. You have, basically, denied 4 spades, and so he will expect the opps to hold a 9 card fit even if he has one himself, and he'll probably place you (provisionally) with something like 3=3=5=2 shape, since with 3+ clubs, you have an easy 3 call, with 4 you'd raise hearts, and with 6 diamonds you probably wouldn't give him a chance to convert a double, and would bid 3 or pass, depending on hand and suit.

As it is, you don't mind if he pulls a double, and you don't mind if he thinks it is penalty and passes anyway, so I would double. If he pulls to 3, showing 5 hearts, I'd raise (tho we might be too high)

2. As an alternative, you can pass. Partner is still there, and that is an often overlooked point. Sometimes, when we aren't sure what to do, think we need to do something, and partner is still there, we can pass. This is difficult to do smoothly and sometimes we create problems for partner by a slow pass, but we are allowed to think, and partner is allowed to make a reasonable call based on his hand....it is an error to assume that a slow pass bars him....it just makes life a bit more difficult than need be. If we played pure penalty doubles, and for some reason didn't want to choose that call here, I would pass. However, if double is an action double, or a do something intelligent double, I make that call instead

3. If I weren't allowed to double or pass, I would choose 3. However Jx is really not enough.

I wouldn't consider (or if I did, I'd immediately reject) any major suit bid and 2N is a non-starter as well for what I trust are obvious reasons.

I have gone on at some length, and maybe you doubt that one can reason this way at the table, but this really is sort of how I think at the table, and it takes far longer to write this than it does to think it :P
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