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Runout Methods Ideology/Systems Appreciated

#1 User is offline   jgillispie 

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Posted 2014-March-08, 17:34

What are your ideas for runouts in these situaions:

1N(10-12, 12-14,or 15-17)-X(Penalty)-?

1x-X-XX-?

These are the only situations that come to mind as I type this, but I'm sure there are others...
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#2 User is offline   hirowla 

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Posted 2014-March-08, 21:19

Here's a couple of ideas for the 1NT - X auction (although I think it is rare you need one for the 15-17 range - I need these because I play a 12-14 range!). I play both of these but with different partners.

1st option:

XX - both minors or diamonds. If you have diamonds and partner bids 2, just bid 2.
2 - both majors.
Other suit bids are natural and suggest 5+ in the suit.

2nd option:

XX - single suit. Partner bids 2 as pass or correct.
2 - and another suit
2 - and a major
2 - both majors
2 - spades (but tends to be weaker than when you XX).
Easy way to remember the suit bids - any suit bid promises that suit and a higher one.

The 2nd option allows you to show all 2 suited hands, but most people at the club prefer the 1st one for some reason.

In terms of the 2nd auction, not much to say. If you have a long suit, bid it and don't be afraid to jump if it is a 6+ card suit (partner knows you have no points). If you have nothing to say, don't say anything - partner can hopefully get himself out of it or the opposition may do it for you.


Regards,

Ian
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#3 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2014-March-08, 21:57

over any weak notrump and a direct double:

pass forces redouble, for either penalty, or a non-touching 2 suiter or both majors, with better spades than hearts

redouble forces 2, for all one-suited hands

an immediate bid of 2 of a suit shows that suit and the next higher.....2 shows hearts equal to or better than spades, and 2 shows the blacks

2N shows a 2-suited game force...the sort of hand on which we rate to make game yet may be going beat in 1N, so we don't want to lay 1N xx

3 level bids are weak, preemptive

I have played a lot of 10-12, and almost as much 11-14 or 12-14 and some 11-13, and this is the best runout method I have seen (I definitely don't take credit...Doug Fraser taught it to me, but I don't know if he came up with it)
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#4 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2014-March-09, 04:12

There are many runout methods out there, but few mention what to do with 4333s :)

Anyway, I like this tweak, which I made up after losing some part-score battles at matchpoints:

1NT (dbl) pass = either weak 1-suited OR strong penalty.

This allows

1NT (dbl) pass (2x)
dbl = take out

and

1NT (dbl) pass (2x)
pass (pass) dbl = take out

Thing is, opener cannot dbl 2x directly as penalty because responder may be weak.

But if the run out is made on a 1-suiter, opener can now freely dbl 2x for take out, for if responder has a weak 1-suiter he will pull to his suit and there will always be an 8-card fit + ruffing values. I.e. the contract should be fine.

Also, if opener passes 2x and responder is strong, he can also dbl 2x for take out confidently because if opener passes, he'll be sitting over the 2x bidder.
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#5 User is offline   hirowla 

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Posted 2014-March-09, 04:28

View Postwhereagles, on 2014-March-09, 04:12, said:

There are many runout methods out there, but few mention what to do with 4333s :)



Personally, I've found prayer works well with 4333s :D

If the 4 card suit is a minor I'll pretend it's 4-4 and usually the opposition rescue me from it. Don't like to do that with a major as it makes it too attractive to double the run-out bid.
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#6 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2014-March-10, 12:12

http://blakjak.org/dbl_1nt0.htm is a good start.

I play "2 scramble": Everything is natural, but 2 could be as short as 1. Everything is to play, including 2 if it's not doubled. If it is, we assume that responder has 4 and opener has 3; if that's not the case, we pull to the cheapest 4-card suit, where the same rules (including the pass-if-not-doubled) apply.

I have a different attitude to runouts from MikeH: a weak NT is a preemptive call, and I am more concerned about not letting go of the pressure than making sure we end up in the least-worst contract we ever play in. So he does the pass-forces-redouble dance so that he can show every two suiter, but he gives up a lot. I play the "1NTx-1 white is a great score; 1NTx-2 is usually a great score into game; 1NTxx-the same not so much; 1NT is the hardest contract to defend perfectly" game, the "don't give 'em two chances to bid unless we want them to bid" game, and the "when they've stepped into our auction, don't let off the gas" immediate business redouble game - why give fourth-hand two different ways to show *his* bad (or good, if pass-is-a-runout this time) hands?

Note that I *also* give up a lot. There's a reason there's 4 pages of runouts on David Stevenson's site :-)

"Run before double" is a useful thought (which my system over NT unfortunately makes difficult).

Runouts over strong NT doubled are getting more popular; usually when it's right and the doubler is over the NT bidder it goes for 5 or 800 into nothing, and at least in North America, since it's rare to have a business double, you're already on the wrong side of the field (unless 1NT makes, of course).
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#7 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2014-March-10, 14:10

I like mycroft's method (without reading all of the details).

Second choice everything natural but this puts a bit more pressure on opener in fourth seat to run than when you can run into clubs without clubs.

Penalty redouble is invaluable. Especially against those who think they need to double (much) more often against weaker no trump ranges.

My last choice would be a method where pass forces a redouble.
Wayne Burrows

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dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#8 User is offline   PhilKing 

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Posted 2014-March-10, 14:36

I think playing pass as forcing a redouble is really bad. It's not just that sometimes we are happy to play 1NT double when we have a moderate hand that might make and has nowhere obvious to run, it's that we give the fourth player a free pass when they have an awkward decision.

Say they have balanced smeg - no problem. They can pass and see what happens, since sometimes their partner is very strong and we are running. And if it goes redouble-p-p they can bid 2 showing that exact hand (a weak hand with a five card suit runs immediately).
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#9 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2014-March-10, 14:47

With Strong NT (14-16, 15-17 or 16-18) I prefer to play systems on as the double is so often artificial and even if penalty we may not be in trouble so may just want to ignore double.

So to runout you have your normal transfers (and garbage Stayman if you play that) plus Pass and Redouble available

Pass - Puppet to redouble, toplay or to start run-out to 4+ suits. However, opener with 5+ card suit willbid suit rather than redouble. This is probably what you do with weak 4333 hands

Redouble - Puppet to2. Either Weak with 5+ / or INV with exactly 5 /♠ but is not suitable handto transfer and bid 2N.




With Weak/Mini NT have to assume double is for penalty even if it's artificial as it can be converted for penalty.

Pass: to play, either a good hand or a weak flat hand withnowhere to run

Rdbl: SOS a weak hand, asks opener to bid 4+ card suit

2/2/2/2: weak hand5+ card suit, to play

2N: both minors, usually weak




3/3/3/3: 6+ cardsuit INV








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#10 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2014-March-10, 14:56

View PostPhilKing, on 2014-March-10, 14:36, said:

I think playing pass as forcing a redouble is really bad. It's not just that sometimes we are happy to play 1NT double when we have a moderate hand that might make and has nowhere obvious to run, it's that we give the fourth player a free pass when they have an awkward decision.

Say they have balanced smeg - no problem. They can pass and see what happens, since sometimes their partner is very strong and we are running. And if it goes redouble-p-p they can bid 2 showing that exact hand (a weak hand with a five card suit runs immediately).


I was about to post something similar. Especially the part that i used bold when quoting you. I played that pass forcing to xx long time and i do not anymore. Yes, i agree with MikeH that it brings some extra fancy options to the table, including not leaving opponents xx ed when they stick their nose into disaster. But none of those are as important as having the ability to just pass w/o forcing to xx for me. The fancy hands that can be shown via pass forcing to xx, or similar ones we used, just did not come, perhaps i was unlucky, not sure....
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#11 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2014-March-10, 16:26

I will warn that there is a problem with "immediate redouble"... RHO doubled, I XX for business with 12, 13 or so. They left it in - and doubler led a fourth-best spade - J.

We could take 10 of the last 6 tricks :-)
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#12 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2014-March-10, 21:03

View Postmycroft, on 2014-March-10, 16:26, said:

I will warn that there is a problem with "immediate redouble"... RHO doubled, I XX for business with 12, 13 or so. They left it in - and doubler led a fourth-best spade - J.

We could take 10 of the last 6 tricks :-)


Indeed i have been off in 1NT XX with a 0355 hand that was cold for seven in either minor.
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#13 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2014-March-11, 05:58

View PostPhilKing, on 2014-March-10, 14:36, said:

I think playing pass as forcing a redouble is really bad. It's not just that sometimes we are happy to play 1NT double when we have a moderate hand that might make and has nowhere obvious to run, it's that we give the fourth player a free pass when they have an awkward decision.

Say they have balanced smeg - no problem. They can pass and see what happens, since sometimes their partner is very strong and we are running. And if it goes redouble-p-p they can bid 2 showing that exact hand (a weak hand with a five card suit runs immediately).



I play a forced redouble method, but have a good record when RHO asks "so that pass is 100% forcing" or similar of finding a green card on the right occasions. I've not had the situation yet where somebody's had a good hand and done this.
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#14 User is offline   PhilKing 

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Posted 2014-March-11, 06:10

View PostCyberyeti, on 2014-March-11, 05:58, said:

I play a forced redouble method, but have a good record when RHO asks "so that pass is 100% forcing" or similar of finding a green card on the right occasions. I've not had the situation yet where somebody's had a good hand and done this.


Doesn't work so well with screens. B-)

I quite like the method in weak or average fields, but it is basically flawed.
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#15 User is offline   broze 

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Posted 2014-March-11, 06:47

View PostCyberyeti, on 2014-March-11, 05:58, said:

I play a forced redouble method, but have a good record when RHO asks "so that pass is 100% forcing" or similar of finding a green card on the right occasions. I've not had the situation yet where somebody's had a good hand and done this.


Interesting. When they ask that question surely it isn't ethical to answer 'yes' and then pass, especially if you've done it more than once?

As for the method, I never agree to play it. I'm amazed it is so popular. When the opponents double my 1NT I at least want the option to play 1NT doubled!
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#16 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2014-March-11, 12:52

My choice of runout system is a variation on Mike's called Spelvic with an additional modifuication of my own to account for the 4333 hands that whereagles mentions.

1NT - (X)
==
P forces XX, then
... - P = to play 1NTXX
... - 2 = + a red suit*
... - 2 = +
... - 2 = + (longer hearts)
... - 2 and up = GF 2-suited freaks
XX forces 2, then
... - P = *
... - 2 =
... - 2 =
... - 2 = (not wanting a raise)
... - 2NT and up = GF 1-suited freaks
2 = +*
2 = +
2 = + (spades equal or longer)
2 = and a suit that will stand a raise
2NT = minors

The modification is for the 3 sequences that show clubs that have been starred. The procedure with a 4333 hand is to pretend you have one club more than you do. Then if 2 gets doubled you redouble. So

3334 = XX then pass 2. XX if 2 gets doubled.
3343/3433 = P then 2. XX if 2 gets doubled.
4333 = bid 2. XX if 2 gets doubled.

I think this is more useful than the traditional SOS meaning within this context. Notice that if you did have the traditional have for showing clubs and then redoubling, something like 4441, you could start with 2 (+) and then run to 2 if that was doubled. Note also that you have to be careful to explain this fully if asked.

The decision on whether to go for more accuracy in reaching the best runout spot or for keeping the ability to ply 1NTX is not an easy one and there are fierce adherents of both methods. My experience has been that much of the time it makes little difference if the opps know what they are doing (we make 1 more trick in our 2 level contract than in 1NT) but that weaker opps err more often over the runout and also that the runout makes 2 more tricks more often than scoring the same number. But I can certainly understand those who take the opposite approach, especially if they do not include some method for dealing with the awkward 4333s.

For your other auction, it is traditional to play that fourth hand bids with a suit and passes as a scramble, although at least one BBF poster prefers the pass to be penalty.
(-: Zel :-)

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#17 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2014-March-11, 13:28

hmm, about 6 months ago, we had someone claim on this forum that he asks "is the [conventional] double [of partner's 1NT] forcing?" and passing rather than running out based at least partially on the answer. My suggestion there was "yes, it is." So why did I pass? "Because *I* have a penalty double" :-)

* he also said he got the bidder to leave the table before asking that question, which has its legal issues (in that it's at least arguable that he does not have that right).
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#18 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2014-March-11, 13:48

View Postbroze, on 2014-March-11, 06:47, said:

Interesting. When they ask that question surely it isn't ethical to answer 'yes' and then pass, especially if you've done it more than once?

As for the method, I never agree to play it. I'm amazed it is so popular. When the opponents double my 1NT I at least want the option to play 1NT doubled!


In system it is forcing, I suspect the director arrives much faster if your reply is "well it was till you asked that question".
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#19 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2014-March-11, 14:14

View PostCyberyeti, on 2014-March-11, 05:58, said:

I play a forced redouble method, but have a good record when RHO asks "so that pass is 100% forcing" or similar of finding a green card on the right occasions. I've not had the situation yet where somebody's had a good hand and done this.


Wouldn't you need to disclose this tendency?
Wayne Burrows

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dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#20 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2014-March-11, 14:17

View Postmycroft, on 2014-March-11, 13:28, said:

hmm, about 6 months ago, we had someone ask "is the [conventional] double [of partner's 1NT] forcing?" and passing rather than running out based at least partially on the answer. My suggestion there was "yes, it is." So why did I pass? "Because *I* have a penalty double" :-)


That doesn't sound forcing to me. Sounds more like it shows something and you have judged it best to pass and that it is normal expectation with what is a relatively frequent hand type that you will pass.
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

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