[Fluffy]

---

This would be an easy problem IMO if it wasn't for the vulnerability, however partner sees it as well. What would you do?, Match Point scoring.

[Zelandakh]

Is this hand not close to the lowest ODR possible? Perhaps I am not understanding the question.

[Fluffy]

The ODR is neutral for most holdings, which is low ODR for a splinter bid. But the values are above minimum

[Zelandakh]

OK, so the question is whether we double with all minimum hands and bidding shows extras or whether we double with all defensive hands (aces) and bidding shows more offense. Put me down for the latter, something like X = low ODR; 5♦ = high ODR + extras; 5♥ = high ODR + min.

[rhm]

Your partner has more information about your hand than you hold about his. If partner is not confident about 11 tricks, what would make you confident?
You have no obvious source of tricks and you could have a reasonable five card side suit or a void in clubs or longer trumps.
West bid is often a shot in the dark. Why should he come to more than seven tricks?
If partner has nothing in clubs or the ace he should lead one. If he has a slow trump trick I am optimistic for the defense.

Rainer Herrmann

[cherdano]

Fluffy, on 2014-February-21, 04:02, said:

The ODR is neutral for most holdings, which is low ODR for a splinter bid. But the values are above minimum

But not much - we have the worst possible shape. We don't have help if partner has bad trumps.

[gszes]

It seems I am missing the point -- If the pass by opener shows a willingness to
play at the 5 level <vs x which would show complete minimum and/or club values>
why are we having a problem with advancing to 5h at these colors? The pass by
opener would seem to indicate they are at least a reasonable 13/14 outside of
clubs so our 12 puts us at 25 or 26 out of 30 outside of clubs. We would seem
to have 1 club loser and rate to have 1 side loser. Having the aces with the
long clubs to our left means any needed finesses will almost assuredly be right
since our rho rates to have most of their sides defensive values. The 9+ card
trump suit also helps us avoid inescapable losers there.

Rhm stated if opener was not confident of 11 tricks seems to miss the point. For
opener to be confident of 11 tricks they would need extra values. The pass allows for
opener to be merely near the top of their minimum. The intereference gives us 3 ways
to prosper--1. opener is near the bottom or opening or worse they x 2. minimum but
useful hand pass and let responder decide. 3. bid on with extra values in the hopes
that slam is on if responder has a touch extra.

[billw55]

rhm, on 2014-February-21, 05:02, said:

Your partner has more information about your hand than you hold about his. If partner is not confident about 11 tricks, what would make you confident?

I agree with this.

Furthermore, I expect partner to have club values. Referring to Ken's thread on splinters, there seems to be a general consensus that splinters point to slam opposite a suitable hand. Ergo, with nothing in clubs, partner likely will be thinking slam and not be satisfied with offering me the choice of game or penalties.

All this makes double a standout for me.

[MrAce]

billw55, on 2014-February-21, 07:30, said:

I agree with this.

Furthermore, I expect partner to have club values. Referring to Ken's thread on splinters, there seems to be a general consensus that splinters point to slam opposite a suitable hand. Ergo, with nothing in clubs, partner likely will be thinking slam and not be satisfied with offering me the choice of game or penalties.

All this makes double a standout for me.

If pd has club values, why did he FP ?

[helene_t]

If partner wants me to bid with this hand he would want me to bid with practically every hand. Double is easy. I don't have to picture out partner's hand, I just look at my own hand and trust partner's judgment.

As an added bonus we get a step of extra space in case partner is slammish. If he pulls I will cooperate. I have a control-rich hand after all.

[billw55]

MrAce, on 2014-February-21, 09:38, said:

If pd has club values, why did he FP ?

It's an interesting question. Perhaps his club cards are not strong enough to be confident of +800. Maybe ♣QTx or so.

I was thinking a different way: if partner does *not* have club values, why did he FP? But maybe that is the wrong idea, dunno.

[neilkaz]

helene_t, on 2014-February-21, 09:46, said:

If partner wants me to bid with this hand he would want me to bid with practically every hand. Double is easy. I don't have to picture out partner's hand, I just look at my own hand and trust partner's judgment.

As an added bonus we get a step of extra space in case partner is slammish. If he pulls I will cooperate. I have a control-rich hand after all.

Yes..this...exactly this.

[kuhchung]

double

[MrAce]

helene_t, on 2014-February-21, 09:46, said:

If partner wants me to bid with this hand he would want me to bid with practically every hand. Double is easy. I don't have to picture out partner's hand, I just look at my own hand and trust partner's judgment.

As an added bonus we get a step of extra space in case partner is slammish. If he pulls I will cooperate. I have a control-rich hand after all.

Helene what do you think pd should do with a hand like


x
KQxxxx
Qxx
Axx


a-He is cold for slam vs what we hold now

b-

AJxx
AQxx
JTxx
x

He is probably down in 5 vs this, had we held this. Particularly when the chances of ♦ lead is increased due to splinter.

I think everyone knows this is a FP situation, but seems like we haven't gone a long way (including myself) what it actually asks/shows. Maybe what you said is true and he does not possibly want us to bid with what we hold, or he has a problem bidding on and/or doubling. Why can't he be seeking a ♦ cue from us ?

Regarding the gaining space comment; if he FP and then pulls, this represents much bigger hands. This may as well be the case.

I do not disagree with any of you doublers. Probably it is percentage bid, i don't know. To tell the truth, this particular position(s) and the meanings of subsequent bids are one of my weakest part of my bidding. So i am not sure which bid would help pd more.

cherdano, on 2014-February-21, 06:56, said:

But not much - we have the worst possible shape. We don't have help if partner has bad trumps.

4441 is just fine when you know your side has 9+ trumps. They can be pain in the @$ when you are playing a 4-4 fit.


EDIT: The hand i constructed the majors were flipped, corrected now.

[mikeh]

I'm astounded at the idea that we should double.

We are clearly in a fp situation, since we forced to game with the expectation of making.

We have a splinter with 5 controls!!!!!!!!!!

We've had lots of discussion in these forums about requirements for splinters and I think the consensus is that it will generally top out at a minimum opening bid (assuming fairly middle of the road opening tendencies). This means that we have maximal hcp and truly outstanding controls.

Partner has relatively few controls yet he is inviting us to compete at the 5-level. Is our shape going to be a disappointment?

If we were holding a full opening bid, with 5 controls and a stiff and a 5 card source of tricks, a splinter would have been a stupid call. We'd have bid our 5 card suit and then shown our support.

So he isn't expecting us to pull only with a hand that is too good for a splinter. He wants us to pull with a hand that meets our criteria for a splinter and that has full values and controls rather than soft values....guess what, folks?

For anyone not yet convinced, please show me a hand on which you would pull to 5♥? One without controls? One where the opps may cash some quick winners?

Let me repeat: partner has a hand on which, despite his weakness in controls, he is inviting us to the 5-level.

I don't have step advances here, but I am still more tempted to make a direct slam move via 5♦ than I am to double....in fact, that's my call....I am bidding 5♦.

[Fluffy]

• 2 22 4C N +1 T6 650 10 4
• 6 30 4C N +1 T7 650 10 4
• 7 21 5C N = PQ 650 10 4
• 9 25 5C N = T 7 650 10 4
• 11 29 4CN+1 C4 650 10 4
• 8 23 4C N = T 8 620 3 11
• 10 27 4CN = C7 620 3 11
• 1 31 6C N-2 T7 -200 0 14

I messed up with a red jack, we had ♥AJ and ♦K10 actually. 5 level was on a 2 way finese, partner has:

♠xx
♥KQxxx
♦AJxx
♣Kx

5♣ can't get more than 1♠, 1♥, 2♦, 1♣

Is there a way to put a block of text keeping the spacing on the forums?

[the hog]

I do not understand the doublers. Partner knows what I have within reason. He does NOT know I have 5 controls. He has made a fp and not a penalty x. This must be an obvious "bid on" situation.

[the hog]

Fluffy, on 2014-February-21, 18:51, said:

• 2 22 4C N +1 T6 650 10 4
• 6 30 4C N +1 T7 650 10 4
• 7 21 5C N = PQ 650 10 4
• 9 25 5C N = T 7 650 10 4
• 11 29 4CN+1 C4 650 10 4
• 8 23 4C N = T 8 620 3 11
• 10 27 4CN = C7 620 3 11
• 1 31 6C N-2 T7 -200 0 14

I messed up with a red jack, we had ♥AJ and ♦K10 actually. 5 level was on a 2 way finese, partner has:

♠xx
♥KQxxx
♦AJxx
♣Kx

5♣ can't get more than 1♠, 1♥, 2♦, 1♣

Is there a way to put a block of text keeping the spacing on the forums?

Why did pd make a fp with this hand? This is a double!

[johnu]

Fluffy, on 2014-February-21, 18:51, said:

Is there a way to put a block of text keeping the spacing on the forums?

Try using

[ html]

test 1     col1        col2      col3
test 2     col2        col2      col3

[/html]

[Fluffy]

html keeps the spacing but somehow loses the line breakers and puts them all in one.