[billw55]

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IMPs, red on white.

Anyone have a forcing raise here? Or do you just jump to some game? Maybe just a gentle 3♣? Or something else?

[jallerton]

I do sometimes play 3♣ as forcing here, but if it were not I'd just bid 3♠. If partner can't bid 3NT over 3♠, then 4♠ is likely to be the best game here, even it's a 5-1 fit.

[jgillispie]

3♣ should be forcing (according to Mike Lawrence in Passed Hand Bidding, p. 106). Let further cuebidding get you in/out of 3N

[neilkaz]

jgillispie, on 2014-February-13, 13:40, said:

3♣ should be forcing (according to Mike Lawrence in Passed Hand Bidding, p. 106). Let further cuebidding get you in/out of 3N

Doesn't Lawrence very strongly recommend Drury? But anyhow if 2m is natural after passing it obviously shows a very limted range so 3m show be forcing.

[kenberg]

For me also it would be Drury but of course that's not the case here. Anyway, I like to play that only 2♣, not 2♦, is Drury so just interchange the minors and you have the same issue. (yes, Lawrence strongly recommends Drury but like me he plays only clubs as Drury so make it the diamond suit and Lawrence will be right in there with us all.) I think it is just too difficult to play if the raise to 3 is not played as forcing. There is something a little off sounding about 1♠-2♣ -3♣-Pass, and I thinkit still sounds off if it is Pass- 1♠-2♣ -3♣-Pass.

Assume Pass-1♠-2♣ is constructive but not forcing. Why would I raise to 3 unless I had something extra? Of course you cannot be certain of where this belongs, but it seems to me that raising clubs announces extras and announces your values oar in spades and in clubs. As they are.

[Fluffy]

3♣ is forcing on every system I ever played.

[billw55]

OK, I guess that settles that. Thank.

For what it's worth I was thinking along the lines of

Quote

Why would I raise to 3 unless I had something extra?

.. to prevent balancing. Which may be the wrong idea at these colors anyway.

[Cyberyeti]

Fluffy, on 2014-February-14, 06:08, said:

3♣ is forcing on every system I ever played.

You haven't played much Acol then, what are you supposed to do with say AKxxx, x, xxx, KJxx opposite x, Qxxx, Qxx, AQ10xx

[Fluffy]

you just need LHO of opener to hold ♥AK♦AK and cash them early for 3NT to make . More seriously, if one is an opener, the other is a 1NT response, it takes real invitational values to do a 2/1. Add a random Jack for the example to be real.

Yes it is an overbid, but it solves your problems when you have AJxxx x AKx KJxx instead.

[mikeh]

Cyberyeti, on 2014-February-14, 09:26, said:

You haven't played much Acol then, what are you supposed to do with say AKxxx, x, xxx, KJxx opposite x, Qxxx, Qxx, AQ10xx

Pass 2♣? Not the toughest bidding problem I have ever seen

[gszes]

passed hand cannot make natural forcing bids in virtually any system I have seen
(or imagine). If opener has no thought of being able to make 5m after your 2c
bid they should pass. Therefore a 3m raise should show enough values to at least
consider 5m and hopefully there is sufficient space to search for 3n along the way.

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2014-February-14, 12:44, said:

Pass 2♣? Not the toughest bidding problem I have ever seen

In traditional Acol, 2♣ is forcing (2N would be natural, 1♠ only shows 4 so no bergen or similar) because it can be that your next bid was intended to be quite a few spades provided partner had 5, Qxx, Kxx, x, Axxxxx for example basically a hand just too good to bid 2♠ but not good enough to open.

And Fluffy, old style Acol gives a 2/1 on an 8 count, we require 10 (or a nice 9 with 5, basically any hand that will force to game opposite a strong notrump) so the hand I gave is a comfortable Acol 2/1.

[mikeh]

Cyberyeti, on 2014-February-14, 14:57, said:

In traditional Acol, 2♣ is forcing (2N would be natural, 1♠ only shows 4 so no bergen or similar) because it can be that your next bid was intended to be quite a few spades provided partner had 5, Qxx, Kxx, x, Axxxxx for example basically a hand just too good to bid 2♠ but not good enough to open.

And Fluffy, old style Acol gives a 2/1 on an 8 count, we require 10 (or a nice 9 with 5, basically any hand that will force to game opposite a strong notrump) so the hand I gave is a comfortable Acol 2/1.

The more various acol bidders write about their methods, the happier I am that I am not playing them.

The notion of any 2/1 by a passed hand being forcing is absurd unless it promises a good fit for opener.

[MrAce]

mikeh, on 2014-February-14, 15:14, said:

The more various acol bidders write about their methods, the happier I am that I am not playing them.

The notion of any 2/1 by a passed hand being forcing is absurd unless it promises a good fit for opener.

I could not have said it better. Ironically Cyber's passed hands will be much weaker than yours. When you open as light as he does (see the topic when he and you disagreed on opening 1♦) it makes even less sense to disable opener from passing when pd is coming from pass.

I am not an Acol fan, and players like Cyber do not help me to change my mind. But i doubt the system is as bad as some players in BBF practices it. I am pretty sure if we listened to Andy or Frances or Wank or some other British player and their versions of bidding the hands in Acol system (i am pretty confident that they all know Acol regardless of what they prefer to play currently) we would have better understanding of the system, rather than the system being used as an excuse for bad judgement.

Same applies to 2/1 as well.

[PhilKing]

Cyberyeti, on 2014-February-14, 14:57, said:

In traditional Acol, 2♣ is forcing

Really? Quote your source.

[Cyberyeti]

PhilKing, on 2014-February-14, 16:16, said:

Really? Quote your source.

Actually in a sense you're right in that many old style Acol players will pass having opened a semi psyche in 3rd, but I think it's forcing opposite a real opening bid. Certainly if you don't play the old 8+ style.

Quote

Ironically Cyber's passed hands will be much weaker than yours.

Actually not true, my unbalanced passes will be weaker than yours, but we pass a lot of balanced 11s that Americans would open.

[mike777]

4c if 3c is not 100% as Mr. Roth might say ......slam should be cold.

but then he may well say 3c shows this hand.

[Zelandakh]

mikeh, on 2014-February-14, 15:14, said:

The more various acol bidders write about their methods, the happier I am that I am not playing them.

A new suit by a passed hand is not forcing in Acol either. The only forcing response after an initial pass is a jump shift.