[Kungsgeten]

I play Swedish club in a partnership and open 1D with 4+ diamonds and an unbalanced hand (may have longer clubs), 11--16 hcp. We currently use the following responses:

1D---
1H = Natural or game forcing relay
1S = Natural
1N = Transfer to clubs, weak or game forcing
2C = Transfer raise, weak with 3+ diamonds or game forcing with 4+ diamonds
2D = Constructive raise, ca 9--12 hcp with 3+ diamonds and no major
2M = Weak jump shift
2NT = Natural INV
3C = Invitational with 6+ clubs
3D = Preemptive (but I'm considering using it as a mixed raise instead)

The above works fairly well, but I'm having thoughts about using 2M as something else. Are there better alternatives? Reverse Flannery would be an option, but right now we play 1D--1S; 2D as showing 4 hearts (we bid 1NT with 6+ diamonds) so the alternatives I see are strong jump shifts or fit showing bids (like 5 card major and 3--4 card support for diamonds, perhaps 8--11 hcp).

The main reason for using 2M as something else was that I thought of using the 2C response more as a multi:

1D--2C = Weak raise OR game forcing raise OR weak with a major. Opener normally bids 2D and responder shows the nature of the hand, but opener could bid something else with good diamonds.

System regulations is not a concern for us.

[Zelandakh]

We discussed INV+ relay responsea a little in a recent thread and they work excellently over the limited unbalanced diamond opening. Here is my scheme:

1♦
==
1♥ = INV+ relay
... - 1♠ = min, <4 spades except 4441 or 4450 (then 1NT = GF relay; others = nat, INV)
... - 1NT = 4+ spades (then 2♣ = GF relay; others = nat, INV)
... - 2♣ = max, 4+ clubs, GF
... - 2♦ = max, 1-suited, GF
... - 2♥ = max, 4 hearts, GF
... - 2♠ = max, 4441
... - 2NT = max, 4450
1♠ = 4+ spades, weak, NF
1NT = 4+ hearts, weak, NF
2♣ = 5+ clubs, weak, NF
2♦ = weak raise
2M = weak, 6+ suit (1♠/1NT followed by 2♠/2♥ is stronger)

That as a whole may be more changes than you would like but the idea you can transfer to your own is of splitting the weak hands up. For example, you might play that one route shows 9-10, in other words game interest on power opposite a max opener, and the other 3-8 - game interest only from distribution. Or whatever ranges seem to work for your opening range. Using these sequences for SJSs when you have GF relays available does not seem to me to be right. Fit-showing would be a better option but you can probably handle these reasonably enough after a 1M response so I do not think the upside would be as high as for WJSs. The other option would be to restructure your rebids so that instead of using 2♦ to show hearts, you use these rebids to distinugish between different minor suit lengths. Then you would get some benefit out of RF - but if this is not a problem then just stick to WJSs, only optimise their ranges in coordination with the rest of the system.

[PrecisionL]

Another idea:

1♦ - 2♥/2♠ = 4-cd ♦ support and good 5-cd Major and invitational values.

[awm]

I'd just look for hand types that are otherwise hard to bid in your methods. While it's not totally clear what these might be, some candidates:

1. Invitational one-suiter with hearts. Can you always get this in at the two-level, or do you need 2♥ as a relay in auctions like 1♦-1♥-2♣ or 1♦-1♥-2♦?
2. Less-than-GF hands with a major and clubs; after 1♦-1M-2♦ or 1♦-1♠-1NT (hearts) you may have trouble showing this hand type.
3. More diamond raises; for example you could use 1♦-2♠ as a mixed raise (with 2NT asking shortage) with 1♦-3♦ as preemptive.

[kenrexford]

You very often have a hand that's a major one suiter,, and accordingly my recommendation is to keep your approach as is.

[straube]

You have so much invested already in describing opener's hand. You shouldn't want to now start describing responder's hand. 1H as relay or hearts makes a lot of sense to me. 1S as natural still makes sense because you have arguably enough room to handle opener's rebids. Using 1N as either clubs or hearts seems like a step too far. Something like this?


1H-hearts or GF relay or GI+ relay if holding a natural 2N response
.....1S-clubs
..........1N-GF relay
.....1N-spades
..........2C-GF relay
.....2C-hearts
..........2D-GF relay
.....2D-diamonds
..........2S-GF relay
.....2H-1444 or 0445 or 0454 or 4441 or 4450
1S-natural, possibly GF
.....1N-hearts
..........2C-GF relay
..........2H-GI 5S/4+H
.....2C-5+clubs
..........2H-GF relay
...............2S-5/5
...............etc-4D/5+C
.....2D-6+ diamonds or 5D/4C
..........2H-GF relay
...............2S-6D
...............etc-5+D/4C
.....2M-spade raises
1N-natural, 4+ clubs
2C-constructive+ diamonds
2D-weak raise
2H-5S/4+H, 0-10
2S-weak, long spades
2N-weak long clubs
3C-GI long clubs

[Kungsgeten]

Zel:
Well I'm not totally convinced using INV+ relays. I guess it works but I would be afraid not knowing which hands were invitational and not. The weak hands seems to have a pretty wide range (0--9?). Also if fourth hand bids I guess opener would have to pass with a minimum? It seems a bit hard to separate the invitational hands from the GF hands in a contested auction. Using weak/GF bids or natural/GF is probably easier in a contested auction (but I'm not sure).

PrecisionL:
Yes, some sort of fit showing bid is an idea I've been thinking about.

awm:
1. Yes we can always invite at the two level after 1D--1H, 2H as responder's rebid is always natural and invitational (about 9--12).
2. Yes, that's true. Hands with 5+ clubs and a 4 card major are hard to show. On the other hand I believe that responder can often take preference in one of opener's suits with this type of hand.
3. It's a possibility. One thing I've been thinking about is when responder should raise instead of showing a four card major. We play mostly matchpoints, so missing a 4-4 major is usually a bid thing.

A hand which is a bit troublesome for us is hands with 5 hearts and less than invitational values. After 1D--1H; opener has some ways of showing three card support, but usually just 4 card support. Using 2H as 5 hearts and some support for diamonds (perhaps 3+) and constructive values may have some merits. With 1D--1S; we're better off since we have a 3-card raise available.

kenrexford:
True. Still nice to look at options

straube:
I'm not very fond of including the invitational balanced hand in the relay, it seems awkward if the opponents choose to enter the auction.


Our scheme over 1D--1M looks like this (1D--1H is mostly stolen from Comedy Club (if I remember the name correctly):

1D--1H;
1S = Any distribution with 4+ clubs, any strength
..1N = Preference for longer minor or GF relay
....2C = Longer clubs or 4-1-4-4
......2D = R
........2H = 4-1-4-4
........2S = Min with 5 clubs and 4 diamonds
........2NT = 4-0-4-5
........3C+ = Max with 5 clubs and 4 diamonds
....2D = Longer diamonds
......2H = R
........2S = Min with 5 diamonds and 4 clubs
........2NT = 4-0-5-4
........3C+ = Max with 5 diamonds and 4 clubs
....2H = Three-suiter with short spades, 1-4-4-4 or 0-4-(45)
....2S = 5-5 minors, min
..2m = To play, opener may correct to 2H with 3+ hearts
..2H = Invitational
..2S = FSF
..2NT = Invitational
..3m = Invitational
1N = 6+ diamonds any strength or max with 4 hearts
..2C = Relay, may be invitational
....2D = Min with 6+ diamonds
....2H = Max with 4 hearts
....2S+ = Max with 6+ diamonds
..2D = Preference, opener corrects with hearts
..2H = Invitational
2C = 4 spades, minimum
..2D = Preference
..2H = Invitational
..2S = Preference
..2NT = GF relay
2D = 4 spades, maximum. Same continuations as above
2H = 4 hearts, minimum
..2S = GF relay
....2N = 4-4-4-1 or 4-4-5-0
....3C+ = 5+ diamonds and 4 clubs
2S = At least 5-5 minors, maximum
2NT+ = Not defined, but I'm thinking of including some max hands with heart fragments

The idea is that opener can show both max or min in most situations. This may seem unnecessary since the relay are GF, but the idea is that we do not have to continue the relays just to check if opener has max.

1D--1S;
1N = 6+ diamonds, may have three card support
2C = At least 5-4 minors
2D = 4 hearts
2H = Three card support, not 6+ diamonds
2S = Four card support
2NT = Max with four card support

[Zelandakh]

The weak hands have exactly the same range as in Standard but can be bid naturally and therefore are easier. You can bid with 0 if you like (tactically) but it is not required. You can differentiate invite versus GF hands the same way as in SAYC, Acol or Forum D. You are at a disadvantage here if they bid and break through the relay barrier because Responder has not shown a real suit; but that is also true of GF or hearts. I keep relays on if it starts 1♦ - 1♥ and the overcall is 1NT or less (2 steps) and revert to natural if the overcall was 2♣ or more. That is a generic rule. I would doubt whether weak or GF is easier than INV+ in many instances but that is also not a fair comparison, since you also include invitational hands in the 1♥ response - rather your 1♥ response is weak with hearts or INV with hearts or any GF.

In the meantime, to offset the disadvantage in competitive auctions after the relay (compared with 2/1 for example) you are gaining on the weak hands where competition is occurring more often. When the auction starts 1♦ - 2♣, fourth hand cannot wait to see what happens as with a F1NT but is under pressure to act, since the auction is not forcing. It is completely unclear who has the majority and both hands have already started to describe themselves. These auctions are great. You can also have such "impossible" auctions as 1♦ - 1♠; 1NT (♥) - 2♣, since fourth suit forcing is unnecessary. That is a lifesaver when Responder has, say, 5-2-1-5.

But I do not want to convince you necessarily. Only show you that the method is playable and has some advantages too. The main point was that the 1-suited major hands are important and splitting up the ranges more accurately is useful. You only really need to look at alternatives if another hand type is causing problems. That is the origin of RF after all.

Finally, an alternative over 1♦ - 1♠ would be:

1NT = both minors, equal or longer clubs
2♣ = both minors, longer diamonds
2♦ = natural
2♥ = nat, extras

It depends whether you find the ill-defined minor suit lengths a problem. If you went for that then RF comes back on the table. As always, pros and cons. A "perfect" system is not going to be found within my lifetime, of that I am sure.

[Kungsgeten]

You make a good point Zel. However we do not have to use 1H for all game forcing hands. A better description for 1H would be: a) weak with 4-5 hearts b) INV+ with 4+ hearts c) A GF hand wishing to use relays. We have the option of using "natural bidding" or relays with a game forcing hand.

My main thought on why 1D--1H; would be easier in competition is that opener can show support for hearts, because that's usually responder's suit. If opener supports hearts and responder doesn't have hearts, responder can bid something else (establishing a game force).

Your alternative over 1D--1S is pretty nice. Perhaps some hands with three card support could be included in the 1NT bid too.

[straube]

Zelandakh, on 2014-January-21, 06:19, said:

Finally, an alternative over 1♦ - 1♠ would be:

1NT = both minors, equal or longer clubs
2♣ = both minors, longer diamonds
2♦ = natural
2♥ = nat, extras

This leaves 1D-1S, 1N-2C and 1D-1S, 2C-2D as sign off bids which doesn't seem right. If step 1 is best used as
a sign off, it almost always means that something is wrong...either with the step 1 meaning itself or with the
preceding sequence.

[Zelandakh]

It depends how limited the openings are. If Opener can still have a game try then this is a way of avoiding the false preference problem because you can preference to the second suit without passing. If Opener cannot have a game try then you would be right, since now Step 1 really is a sign off, rather than just keeping the bidding open for partner. In some ways this mirrors the difference between how you see the world (through max 15 openings) and how I see it (through max 17 openings).

[straube]

And his max is 16 which cuts right between us

[Zelandakh]

Yeah, this is one reason I do not like 16 as an upper limit - it seems to me to get the worst of both worlds.

[straube]

1H-hearts or GF relay or GI+ relay if holding a natural 2N response
.....1S-clubs
..........1N-GF relay
.....1N-spades
..........2C-GF relay
.....2C-hearts
..........2D-GF relay
.....2D-diamonds
..........2S-GF relay
.....2H-1444 or 0445 or 0454 or 4441 or 4450
1S-natural, possibly GF
.....1N-hearts
..........2C-GF relay
..........2H-GI 5S/4+H
.....2C-5+clubs
..........2H-GF relay
...............2S-5/5
...............etc-4D/5+C
.....2D-6+ diamonds or 5D/4C
..........2H-GF relay
...............2S-6D
...............etc-5+D/4C
.....2M-spade raises
1N-natural
2C-to play
2D-raise
2H-5S/4+H, 0-10
2S-GI raise diamonds
2N-natural
3C-GI

[Zelandakh]

Just for completeness, here is another alternative to natural I am fond of, albeit one that gives up on relays, based on skip bid responses:-

1♦
==
1♥ = any hand without 4 hearts except direct raises (subsequent 2♥ from Responder is a GF)
1♠ = 4+ hearts, <4 spades (subsequent 2♠ by Responder is a GF)
1NT = both majors, <GF
2♣ = both majors, GF
2♦ = INV+ raise
2M = WJS

The basic idea here is that denying a suit provides a convenient low-level cue and bidding 1♥ keeps out of Opener's way in describing their hand. Most of the time it works out similarly to Standard (eg 1♦ - 1♠(♥); 2♣ - 2♠ and 1♦ - 1♥(♥); 2♣ - 2♠ are pretty much identical). Is probably not the right direction for you in this system when you are going the relay route though.

[straube]

Have you considered 1D-1N as GF relay? Then

2C-both minors
2D-3-suited
2H-2-suited, 4H
2S-1-suited
etc-2-suited, 4S

Other responses to 1D...

1H-natural, f
1S-natural, f
2C-weak
2D-constructive
2H-WJS
2S-WJS
2N-natural
3C-GI
3D-weak