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Possible Defense To Weak NT

#1 User is offline   pbleighton 

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Posted 2003-June-25, 14:46

Looking at defenses to 1NT, the responses seem to fall into 3 categories:
1) Penalty double
2) 6 card suits (or a great 5)
3) hands with two 4 card suits

Against a weak NT, it seems to me that something is missing - decent, but not great, 5 card majors. Game is not out of the question vs a weak NT, but it is almost certainly in a major, if it exists.

Posters in other threads have made the point that the weak NT is rarely doubled successfully for penalties. So use double to show 6 card suits, as in DONT. Then:
2C shows clubs and another
2D shows hearts and spades
2H/2S shows a decent 5 card suit or better, and better values than normal in NT interference (perhaps 14+ hcp).

I doubt that this particular scheme will work, but how do people think about a more constructive approach to overcalling a weak NT?
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#2 User is offline   luis 

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Posted 2003-June-25, 14:52

I played this against weak NT for some time:

Dbl: Balanced 13+ or one suited with 16+
2c: Transfer to d's 12-15 or Hearts and another suit 12-15 or d+other 16+
2d: Transfer to h's 12-15 or two suited with h 16+
2h: Transfer to s's 12-15 or two suited with s 16+
2s: Spades and another suit 12-15
2n: Freakish distributional hand
3x: Preempts
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#3 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2003-June-25, 16:37

There are a number of schemes over a NT. One fairly unknown one, (in US), is SOAP - system over artificial pre emption
2C = H, resp bids 2D with no fit and 4S
2D = S resp bids 2H with no fit and 4+H
2H/S = 4 cards in that suit and a longer m
2NT = 5/5 ms
x = pens
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#4 User is offline   pbleighton 

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Posted 2003-June-25, 16:42

Ron -

"There are a number of schemes over a NT. One fairly unknown one, (in US), is SOAP - system over artificial pre emption
2C = H, resp bids 2D with no fit and 4S
2D = S resp bids 2H with no fit and 4S
2H/S = 4 cards in that suit and a longer m
2NT = 5/5 ms
x = pens"

What suit length does 2C/2D promise? What is the minimum normal hcp for these bids?
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#5 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2003-June-25, 17:50

Depends on the vulnerability, Peter. In general 2C/D show the same M suit length/strength as a normal 2H/S overcall. eg over a weak Nt nv I'd bid 2C on
and that would be my bare minimum
xx
KQTxxx
AJx
xx

Other quite nice defences are:

Asptro
2C = H + ?
2D = S + ?
2H/S = s/suiters
With both Majors, you anchor into the weaker M

Lionel
Hrothgar has posted a description of this somewhere.

I've played all of these against weak and strong NTs. Which one you prefer is largely a matter of personal preference.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#6 User is offline   hallway 

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Posted 2003-June-25, 23:00

Hi Peter,

We just play a very BASIC ACOL and only ever bid a 1NT opener as a WEAK 12-14 Balanced.

It has been suggested that when defending against such a 1NT Opener we could use the 'Hamilton Convention" of

10 -14 2 C = single suit 6+
2 D = both Majors 5 +
2 H = 5H and a minor
2 S = 5S and a minor
2NT = both minors

15 (pref) 16 + Double = Penalties

It would be interesting to hear what others think of this method.
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#7 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2003-June-26, 00:15

Hamilton has on MAJOR flaw.
Over (1NT) 2C if third hand bids, your fit may be lost forever. eg if you have a H suit and opener's pd bids 2S, you could be missing a really nice H partial simply because pd of the 2C bidder does not know what suit overcaller has.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#8 User is offline   Codo 

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Posted 2003-June-26, 02:07

Hi Ron,

Hamilton/Capeletti/Crowhurst has some flaws, but not the one you mentioned.
If the bidding started with 1 NT (2 CLub) 2 any, but can double for take out, knowing, that you have a long major.

The defects are:
If you bid 2 Diamond with unequal length, pd with equal length has a problem.
You can solve this, if you revers the meaning of 2 Club and 2 Diamond. Then pd can bid 2 Diamonds to let you decide.

With M/m two suiters you have to play at the 3. level in about 50% of the time, which may be just one level too high.
Kind Regards

Roland


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#9 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2003-June-26, 02:38

If the bidding started with 1 NT (2 CLub) 2 any, but can double for take out, knowing, that you have a long major

Huh?

The bidding
(1NT) 2C (2S)

You hold
xxx
Kxxx
Jx
Axxx

If pd has H or C you want to raise to the 3 level; if he has D as is likely, you don't want to bid. Which has he got? The 2C bid shows ANY s/suiter.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#10 User is offline   Codo 

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Posted 2003-June-26, 03:39

Hi Ron,

Okay I got it, sorry I am so used to play 2 Club to show one MAJOR, that I did not get your point.
And UR right, if 2 Club shows one suit, you sometimes have a problem.

Kind Regards

Roland
Kind Regards

Roland


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#11 User is offline   bridgek 

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Posted 2003-June-26, 07:48

I play
dbl= 6crd minor or both majors 11-16 or 17 +
2m= 4+ crd + another 11-16 if 5m-4M upper range
2M= natural 5+crd 11-16

resp to dbl:
2C= nf relay
2D= no pref for M, no fit correct with C
2M= pref no fit correct with minor
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#12 User is offline   badderzboy 

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Posted 2003-June-26, 11:16

I'm very keen for the guidance so far on this thread and my partner and I are considering ASTPRO.

One maybe silly question for the experts is there any reason not to steal transfers and use say Puppet Stayman for the defence as it should find all 5/3 or 4/4 fits in one level, ie.

2C asks partner for 5 Card Major and responses as for puppet... (say 11-15 range) , pass <10pts
and use DBL for 16+ Partner could then use Puppet in reponse...
Transfers for remainder with 11-15 and 5 Card major by bidder.
If opps bid trfr themselves then DBL shows bid suit and 5Cards in bid suit...

I'm sure I'm not the first to think of it and it must have some major flaws...

Steve
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#13 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2003-June-26, 11:42

Quote

I'm very keen for the guidance so far on this thread and my partner and I are considering ASTPRO.

One maybe silly question for the experts is there any reason not to steal transfers and use say Puppet Stayman for the defence as it should find all 5/3 or 4/4 fits in one level, ie.

2C asks partner for 5 Card Major and responses as for puppet... (say 11-15 range) , pass <10pts
and use DBL for 16+ Partner could then use Puppet in reponse...
Transfers for remainder with 11-15 and 5 Card major by bidder.
If opps bid trfr themselves then DBL shows bid suit and 5Cards in bid suit...

I'm sure I'm not the first to think of it and it must have some major flaws...

Steve


Multiple points:

#1 Transfers in competition don't place enough pressure on the opponents.

#2 Puppet Stayman can have serious repercussions with a misfit. You are going to be forced too high on many hands.

#3 Stayman and Puppet Stayman are designed to identify major suit fits, since this is a critical goal in constructive bidding. When competing over a NT opening, your goal is to jam the opponents auction. It doesn't matter where you declare a major or a minor, so-long as you

(A) Are displacing them out of NT
(B) Land in a relatively safe contract

I'm very partial to "extended" Lionel

X = Spades and another suit
2C = Clubs and Hearts
2D = Diamonds and Hearts
2H = Hearts
2S = Spades
2NT = Constructive 2 suiter (promises Clubs)
3C = Both minors, preemptive
3D = Constructive with Diamonds and a Major
3H = Constructive with both Majors
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#14 User is offline   Cave_Draco 

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Posted 2003-June-26, 12:19

Astro has always worked for me; Asptro is an "amusing" modification, ;D.

One BIG problem with respect to defences to the Weak NT is the "System On" option. How will the NT side take your interference?

1NT-X-p-p-XX... HELP!
1NT-X-XX-p-?... ;D, they are in trouble P!.
1NT-2C-X... Stayman.
1NT-2C-p... wait & see.
1NT-2D-?... Normally, System Off.

If the 2C overcall shows Hearts?

Another, I think natural, corollary to the Weak NT is Inverted Minors; since 1m promises length or strength... Any defences to Inverted Minors?
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#15 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2003-June-27, 12:27

Quote


I'm very partial to "extended" Lionel

X = Spades and another suit
2C = Clubs and Hearts
2D = Diamonds and Hearts
2H = Hearts
2S = Spades
2NT = Constructive 2 suiter (promises Clubs)
3C = Both minors, preemptive
3D = Constructive with Diamonds and a Major
3H = Constructive with both Majors



I think that this is a fine defence against a strong NT, but against a weak NT I think it is important to retain a penalty double.

The other difference against a weak NT is that game is still a viable option, so your defence must have more constructive follow ups than are needed against a strong NT.

Paul
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#16 User is offline   pbleighton 

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Posted 2003-June-27, 12:33

Paul writes:
"The other difference against a weak NT is that game is still a viable option, so your defence must have more constructive follow ups than are needed against a strong NT."

Would you give me an example of what has been in your experience a more constructive approach? Not just the bids, but the strength requirements vs a strong NT.
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#17 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2003-June-27, 12:41

Quote

Paul writes:
"The other difference against a weak NT is that game is still a viable option, so your defence must have more constructive follow ups than are needed against a strong NT."

Would you give me an example of what has been in your experience a more constructive approach? Not just the bids, but the strength requirements vs a strong NT.



Against a weak NT, it's worth investing the time to have some constructive sequences after a two-suited overcall. For example, after an Asptro 2C showing hearts + another, 3C is typically used as a game-try.

Over a weak NT, you should be slightly stronger to compete in the direct position, safe in the knowledge that partner will compete with poor hands in 4th.

Against a strong NT, this is sort of reversed. It is rare that you will bid game so you can compete with weaker distributional hands in both positions - partner will not go overboard given there is a 15-17 NT around.

Paul
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#18 User is offline   luis 

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Posted 2003-June-27, 13:22

Quote

Against a strong NT, this is sort of reversed. It is rare that you will bid game so you can compete with weaker distributional hands in both positions - partner will not go overboard given there is a 15-17 NT around.


Fully agree and I'd like to suggest that you should keep the 2NT bid as a powerful two suiter when they open 1NT, my idea is that most chances to win a game after they open 1NT come from two-suited hands. And you don't want your pd to pass your 2x bid. Summarizing you should have at least ONE forcing bid to use if they open 1NT just in case.

That's why I like "TDONT" (Twisted DONT) A treatment I recommend to DONT players:
dbl: one suited hand
2c: c+other
2d: d+M
2h: h+s
2s: Some preempt at the 3 level
2n: Powerful 2 suited hand
3c: Both Minors (5-5) weakish
3d: Diammonds and a major (5-5) weakish
3h: Majors (5-5) weakish
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#19 User is offline   bearmum 

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Posted 2003-July-06, 05:43

against weak NT (ie Acol 12-14) we play Cappelletti - with 4/4 suits ONLY if NON VUL). Seems to work ok for us :)

SO X shows 15+
2C = single suiter ( at LEAST 6 carder)
2D= majors
2H + H + minor
2S = S + minor
2NT = minors
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#20 User is offline   irdoz 

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Posted 2003-August-03, 20:14

I've played Astro and Asptro and certainly prefer them to CAPP and DONT which both have flaws.

I've recently being experimenting with Woolsey (it might have another name) - it caters for more hand types and doesnt have some of the problems of DONT and CAPP.

Its basic structure is...

dbl = 4M/5m opening hand+ or a good diamond one suiter (Resp Pass convert to penalty, 2c asks minor; 2d asks major, 2M to play) (Can also include very strong hands in dbl in which case 2nt over any response shows this hand)

2c = 54 in majors (Resp 2d asks longer major)

2d = one suiter in major or strong major/minor hand (Resp 2s = spades; 2h = pass or correct) (If overcaller continues with 2nt shows strong hand)

2M = 5/5 major minor (Resp 2nt ask minor)

2nt = minors

3m = 6+ cards preempt
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