[snowdragen]

Hi everyone, first post! A short introduction: I'm a very casual player; bridge often being a "go-to" card game for me at parties. I think it's very fun, but I've never advanced past the novice level. Recently though I came upon this hand that I'm not exactly sure how to bid. I'm not really knowledgeable about bidding systems except for the really common ones like Stayman, etc (from reading newspaper bridge columns). I also get that minor suit openings tend to be artificial. Will all that in mind, here's the hand in question.

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I skimmed the web for common bidding examples, but none of them seemed to match this deal. It's definitely too strong for a preemptive bid, but with only 16HCP it's not a 2♣ bid either. The actual auction went like this:

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I think there was a missed opportunity in there somewhere.

I guess a secondary question of mine is, is there some (more or less) universal way to convey this sort of hand/distribution? Thanks in advance, o wise bridge gurus!

[Cyberyeti]

Your choices:

Opening bid 1♣ or 5♣

I would bid 1♦ rather than 1♥ with your partner's hand but I can understand 1♥ (which I'd bid with that shape and less points).

You are unfortunate that opps didn't find their 10 card spade fit, which would probably have projected you to 5♣.

I understand your partner's pass, if he bids, he fears you will have xxx, A, x, AKQJxxxx or similar and his hand will be completely useless after a high spade and a trump.

I think you should rebid 3♣ or 5♣ rather than 4♣. 3♣ if partner has some values as here will cause partner to bid again, and 5♣ just sets the contract, I have no strong feelings between them.

[the hog]

Freaks are always hard to bid. I would open 1C. The 1H bid rather than 1D is obvious else you may never find a 5-3 H fit. Now I would bid 3C . Partner will bid 3D and I will try 3NT.

[eagles123]

I guess it depends on form of scoring i.e. MP you probably want to be in 3N by S whereas IMP you'd rather be 5 of a minor.

MP my partnership would bid like the Hog suggests

IMP think south would insist on playing 5C

[Cyberyeti]

 the hog, on 2014-January-18, 05:03, said:

Freaks are always hard to bid. I would open 1C. The 1H bid rather than 1D is obvious else you may never find a 5-3 H fit. Now I would bid 3C . Partner will bid 3D and I will try 3NT.

My point is that I think the hand is good enough to bid again possibly more than once over 1♣-1♦-2♣, if partner has xxx, Ax, Ax, Axxxxx this is sufficient to make 4♥ a lot of the time, so with the red suited hand I was intending to keep bidding for a while unless partner bid spades.

[broze]

Opening 5♣ is terrible imo. I would bid 1♣ planning to rebid 3NT over 1H, 5C over anything else.

[Cyberyeti]

 broze, on 2014-January-18, 08:14, said:

Opening 5♣ is terrible imo. I would bid 1♣ planning to rebid 3NT over 1H, 5C over anything else.

I wouldn't say it was terrible although I wouldn't do it, you have no guarantees it's even your hand as you have very little defence to 5M opposite a flat heap and on a bad day haven't beaten 6 yet, how are you going to enjoy 1♣-1♠-P-4♠-5♣-5♠ ? much less likely to be doubled or removed if you start with 5♣.

[eagles123]

 Cyberyeti, on 2014-January-18, 11:07, said:

I wouldn't say it was terrible although I wouldn't do it, you have no guarantees it's even your hand as you have very little defence to 5M opposite a flat heap and on a bad day haven't beaten 6 yet, how are you going to enjoy 1♣-1♠-P-4♠-5♣-5♠ ? much less likely to be doubled or removed if you start with 5♣.

obviously you are a far better player than me, but would've thought missing a slam of our own would be far more of a concern than a potential fluke that the opps have 5 or even 6M?

[Cyberyeti]

 eagles123, on 2014-January-18, 11:56, said:

obviously you are a far better player than me, but would've thought missing a slam of our own would be far more of a concern than a potential fluke that the opps have 5 or even 6M?

a) it depends how aggressively you open 5♣, which says how often partner raises

b) the problem with a hand like this is that more often than you might think opposite a passed hand, if you are making 6♣, opps are saving for 300/500 in 6M which they find if you take it slowly, so 5♣+1 is not a big deal at anything other than pairs when it's 500.

Also I wouldn't dream of passing the (rule of 21) N hand, if openings are that conservative, 5♣ is going to be a pretty fine hand.

[c_corgi]

OP is right that the South hand is awkward for standard methods, not really suitably for opening 2C or opening 1C and rebidding 3C. I think hand evaluation is the important point for this thread.

Once South has opened 1C (which I agree with) and heard the 1H response (also reasonable), he can see that 3NT is a good proposition even if North has a very weak hand (♥JTxx and nothing else gives good play). Any action which takes the auction beyond 3NT, including 1C-1H-4C or a 5C opening is therefore not something I would consider. I think the nearest thing to a universal method to convey this hand is eagles' suggestion of a 3NT rebid after 1C-1H, which many people play as a good suit and some outside stoppers. It is less attractive if North responds 1D or 1S.

Presumably South rebid 4C because his hand was too strong for 3C (I agree with this premise). North should realise that South is trying to reach game knowing that North is a passed hand. North has a maximum pass. Admittedly it fits badly and hands can be constructed where game will not make, but quite often N/S will have game somewhere. It is too late to investigate the best game, but 4C loses to any making game and only gains when there are none. I think North has to guess at the most likely game and 5C would be my choice.

[uday]

Many players play that if you open a minor and rebid 3NT you show long strong clubs , typically headed by the AKQ and stoppers on the side.

That's one good way to handle this hand type (assuming partner responds 1H), if somewhat restrictive in that this isn't a very common hand type.

For newcomers to the game I see nothing wrong with

- the actual auction. I like that opener tried to jump more to show more. Perhaps responder should raise to 5C, since he has some extra values ( he might have had only 6 points for bidding 1H, and he has 10 )

- opener rebidding 3C to show a better than minimum hand with 6 or more good clubs. Over that, partner might show his diamonds, knowing that his points and your points add up to enough for 3NT ( which usually needs about 25,26 high card points ). And if responder shows Hearts and Diamonds, opener could bid 3NT now since he has a spade stopper.

[Zelandakh]

Hello snowdragen and welcome to these forums. Within the methods at your diposal I would personally have chosen 2♣. While the hcp strength is low, the playing strength of the hand (9.5 tricks!) makes up for it. As it happens, opening 1♣ rather than 2 has probably been helpful but only if you now have a convenient way of showing game forcing values. 3♣ would not be forcing and therefore risky, while 5♣ is both committal and wasteful of bidding space.

So there are 3 options - your choice of 4♣ would be ok if it were forcing, but sadly we can see that partner did not see it that way so maybe best to choose something else this time and ask them about it afterwards. If you have agreed a 3NT rebid here to show a very strong 1-suiter, that is a good option - presumably that was not the case though. If not then the best way of forcing is a 2♦ reverse, keeping as much bidding space as possible to sort it all out later. Some pairs even have the specific agreement that this 2♦ reverse does not promise real diamonds.

Now I would not normally make the suggestion of bidding a 2 card suit naturally like this in this forum but I cannot see another reasonable option. This is something you could predict at the time of the opening bid, so if this seems a little daunting or weird then go back to option #1 and simply open 2♣. Now you have gotten the playing strength of the hand off your chest and can simply make natural bids for the rest of the auction and leave it to partner. In this case North would probably sniff around a little bit for a slam and then settle for 5 of a minor.

[ahydra]

I would rebid 3NT - shows a hand too strong for 3C rebid but not strong enough to open 2C, normally with an excellent club suit. (But why did North pass with that nice 6-5?)

4C was a reasonable choice to get the message across but it looks like partner didn't interpret it correctly

Interestingly this hand reminds me of one at the weekend. My team-mate, a Grand Master (!), with a hand similar to this opened 1C and rebid 2NT! (I think it was 2227 with 18 HCP - point count matches the bid, but the playing strength is MUCH better than 2NT suggests). They stopped in 6NT with grand slam cold, not a good idea at a national tournament. Thankfully other table did not find the grand either.

ahydra

[P_Marlowe]

The bidding you gave is fine, except for the final pass.

The thing to take away from this hand is, that it is usually not a good idea
to play 4m, you should only play 4m, if you have firmly ruled out the possibility
to play 3NT, making a 4m bid forcing to game, showing SI.

The reason is simple, playing 4m earns you no riches.

In the given seq., opener ruled out 3NT, he did not even try investigating, he
just said we play clubs as trumps.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: Forgot to add: "A warm welcome."

[snowdragen]

Thanks for the responses everyone! After reading all your posts, I agree with the 3NT rebid more in retrospect. It seems to be the most consistent way of showing this kind of hand strength and long clubs as was mentioned. Yeah, the idea behind 4♣ was to convey strength, but it really doesn't leave responder with many options, so I forgive my partner for passing. Aside from that, the advantages of having a bidding system in place prior to the hand are clear especially with unusual hands like these. The problem is that I don't really have a single partner I play with all the time, like I said, I enjoy reading about Bridge but when I play it's usually a matter of opportunity.

Anyway, thanks again to everyone for bearing with me. (I wasn't sure to what extent my self-analyses were correct, from a more advanced player's perspective).

[chasetb]

I really don't like the 4♣ rebid, but that is not because of the hand. In Standard American, any time you open 1 of a minor, partner responds 1 of a Major, and you jump to 4 of your minor, you are showing 4-card support with 2 honors for the Major, a really good 6+ Club suit, and usually no outside points.

It's a part of the system, just like opening 5♥ or 5♠ is Josephine (only asking about the A, K, and Q of your suit), but most people don't know about it.