[TWO4BRIDGE]

Vampyr, on 2013-November-30, 05:25, said:

With 4-5 you can transfer to hearts and then bid spades; with 5-4 there is no problem so long as you interchange the 3NT and 3♥ rebids -- so 3♥ is no 4- or 5-card major and 3NT is a hand with 5 hearts. It's not a big change.

It's called Muppet over 2NT ...

[fromageGB]

Vampyr, on 2013-November-30, 05:25, said:

With 4-5 you can transfer to hearts and then bid spades; with 5-4 there is no problem so long as you interchange the 3NT and 3♥ rebids -- so 3♥ is no 4- or 5-card major and 3NT is a hand with 5 hearts. It's not a big change.

I assume the 54xx starts puppet 3♣ and these are your opener rebids. But then you have to also invert responder's continuations over 3♥, for right-siding, so that 3♠ is a transfer to 3NT while 3NT shows 5♠. You have turned your little change into a bigger change. Most natural bidders shirk at opener bidding 3NT with 5 hearts, and responder bidding 3NT with 5 spades.

[Vampyr]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-November-30, 08:25, said:

It's called Muppet over 2NT ...

Is it? By whom?

[nigel_k]

Vampyr, on 2013-November-30, 11:26, said:

Is it? By whom?

By people who are too lazy to say 'modified puppet' and/or think that 'muppet' sounds cooler.

[jallerton]

fromageGB, on 2013-November-30, 10:02, said:

I assume the 54xx starts puppet 3♣ and these are your opener rebids. But then you have to also invert responder's continuations over 3♥, for right-siding, so that 3♠ is a transfer to 3NT while 3NT shows 5♠. You have turned your little change into a bigger change. Most natural bidders shirk at opener bidding 3NT with 5 hearts, and responder bidding 3NT with 5 spades.

No, you don't "have to" invert 3♠ and 3NT over the 3♥. Here I think it's better to play 3♠ and 3NT as natural. "Right-siding" is over-rated as most of the time it won't matter who declares spades. On the much more frequent 3NT hands, by bidding 3♠ you're giving the next hand a chance to double. Doubling here is less likely to be punished with a redouble compared with the auction 2NT-Pass-3♠-dbl because Opener has already denied 4 spades on the Muppet sequence.
-
Also the partnership has to agree what to do if the declarership has already been determined. I know of pairs who play 2♣-2♦-2♥(Kokish)-2♠-2NT-3♣(Muppet)-3♥-3♠ as a puppet to 3NT, reasoning that for "simplicity" they play the same as after a 2NT opening!

[jallerton]

Back to the original question over a 1NT opening, the answer depends on what sort of hands are opened 1NT. I've only played 1NT-3♣ as 5-card Stayman with one partner; he is the person who has a tendency to open 1NT on 5M422 shapes and worse. If that's a possible hand type, then investigating a 5-3 major suit fit is more worthwhile.

[glen]

Vampyr, on 2013-November-30, 11:26, said:

Is it? By whom?

the muppet monsters

[32519]

Puppet Stayman is a bad idea. Period!!!

Nuff said!

[Zelandakh]

Vampyr, on 2013-November-30, 05:25, said:

With 4-5 you can transfer to hearts and then bid spades; with 5-4 there is no problem so long as you interchange the 3NT and 3♥ rebids -- so 3♥ is no 4- or 5-card major and 3NT is a hand with 5 hearts. It's not a big change.

Or you can deal with thr 5-4 hands by responding 3♦ on hands with 3 spades as well as those with a 4 card major.

I personally transfer to hearts and then bid 3NT on the 4-5 hands without slam interest and move the stronger 4-5s into 3♣. That gets round the wrong-siding issue on these hands and makes the structure very slightly more efficient (but is obviously a bigger change).

[NickRW]

awm, on 2013-November-26, 20:29, said:

1. People don't agree with me on the relative merits of 3NT vs. 4M on two balanced hands (a sim could help, but I'm not going to run one). Also, a lot of people play systems where they have to open 1NT on 5332 hands in range and cannot use judgement in that aspect of the auction.

I did some sims on this quite a while ago. As I recall 3NT was generally the better with 5332 opposite 4333 compared to the 5-3 major fit (as there is no ruff in the short hand), but 5332 opposite 4432 was better in the major as there often is a ruff.

It somewhat depends also on whether the game is thin or not. Sometimes the 5-3 fit will play better because of the lack of a stop (and this is obv. more common when you're a bit short of cards), whereas a surplus of cards sometimes leads to overs in NT

Nick

[glen]

NickRW, on 2013-December-03, 06:01, said:

I did some sims on this quite a while ago. As I recall 3NT was generally the better with 5332 opposite 4333 compared to the 5-3 major fit (as there is no ruff in the short hand), but 5332 opposite 4432 was better in the major as there often is a ruff.

It somewhat depends also on whether the game is thin or not. Sometimes the 5-3 fit will play better because of the lack of a stop (and this is obv. more common when you're a bit short of cards), whereas a surplus of cards sometimes leads to overs in NT

Nick

A couple of example layouts to illustrate:
1)
♠ Q32
♥ 32
♦ AK32
♣ 5432

♠ AKJ54
♥ KQ4
♦ Q54
♣ J6

2)
♠ Q32
♥ 32
♦ KJ32
♣ QJ92

♠ AKJ54
♥ KQJ
♦ Q54
♣ T5

Same shapes, but the 4M/3NT is quite distinct.

[aguahombre]

However, neither responding hand comes up to 3C Puppet. They are both invitational; so this thread does not relate.

On both, Responder will invite game in our style via Stayman and Opener will show the fifth Spade while accepting but not bid 3S (will bid the heart concentration). Responder will then choose the appropriate strain. I think others who use 2S as the invite should be able to sort out the strain as well....with a little discussion.

Alternatively, you could consider the first one strong enough to force game because of the primes, and puppet will get to the Spade contract anyway.

[glen]

aguahombre, on 2013-December-03, 20:03, said:

They are both invitational; so this thread does not relate.

let me fix that:

1)
♠ QJ2
♥ 32
♦ AK32
♣ 5432

♠ AK543
♥ KQ4
♦ Q54
♣ J6

2)
♠ QJ2
♥ 32
♦ KJ32
♣ QJ92

♠ AK543
♥ KQJ
♦ Q54
♣ T5

Same shapes, but the 4M/3NT is quite distinct.

[aguahombre]

With your fixes, what we have is:

1) Still the opening bidder's suit primes are not great enough to open 1♠ instead of 1NT. So,

2) The judgement falls on Responder to inquire via Puppet for a suit strain on (1) because of the extreme concentration of values in the two pointed suits, or not to do so on (2).

If the Heart suit is wide open, oh well.