[RSClyde]

ArtK78, on 2013-November-06, 16:47, said:

A 4♥ opening by partner pretty much ends the discussion of choice of trump suit. After that opening, the only options are some number of hearts or a slam in notrump.

So I can't bid 4♠ with 8 solid spades? I remember a question on here recently in which the consensus was to open 4♥ with a queen high suit. And this sets trump? All so we can have a bunch of nuanced ways of throwing the ball back to a partner who thought he already described his hand with his opening bid, to require that he make some esoteric determination about the final contract which ultimately amounts to being little more than a guess anyway?

[ArtK78]

RSClyde, on 2013-November-06, 22:27, said:

So I can't bid 4♠ with 8 solid spades? I remember a question on here recently in which the consensus was to open 4♥ with a queen high suit. And this sets trump? All so we can have a bunch of nuanced ways of throwing the ball back to a partner who thought he already described his hand with his opening bid, to require that he make some esoteric determination about the final contract which ultimately amounts to being little more than a guess anyway?

You can do what you want. But if you want to define your bids over 4 level preempts as natural and to play, then you are catering to a very small number of possible hands where it could actually be right to play in another suit after a 4 level preempt.

[RSClyde]

And what are you catering to? Hands where the preemptor can make a better guess than his partner. On the given hand for example responder wants opener to bid slam on
xxx KQJxxxxx - xx
but not on
x KQJxxxxx x Qxx
and 5♣ describes this situation? Of course, 5♣ = bid 6♥ with a diamond void and a 3rd round club control. The preemptor is totally getting that right.

[Cyberyeti]

RSClyde, on 2013-November-06, 22:27, said:

So I can't bid 4♠ with 8 solid spades? I remember a question on here recently in which the consensus was to open 4♥ with a queen high suit. And this sets trump? All so we can have a bunch of nuanced ways of throwing the ball back to a partner who thought he already described his hand with his opening bid, to require that he make some esoteric determination about the final contract which ultimately amounts to being little more than a guess anyway?

Bidding over a high preempt is never an exact science whether it's yours or theirs. You have to work on frequency grounds. When you have a suit you're prepared to announce as trumps at the 4 level, the number of hands that partner wants to overrule that on, but doesn't want to bid 6 is very small, and you live with that.

4♠ for us is keycard.

[aguahombre]

The recent posts have nothing to do with the OP situation or question.

4H was overcalled with 4S, and Responder is (or is not) choosing to bid 5m to bring Opener into the decision about further competition if the opponents continue in Spades.

I would like to use 4S differently over their 4S (but, I can't), than I would have over a Pass by RHO.

Focus, Clyde. Yes, we might want to consult the preemptor when there has been an overcall; and we should make sure before doing so that partner is not going to hang us with a Pass if the Opponents don't compete further. Bidding 4S ourselves over partner's uncontested 4H is a pointless muddling of your position against consultive bids.

[RSClyde]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-November-07, 02:59, said:

Bidding over a high preempt is never an exact science whether it's yours or theirs. You have to work on frequency grounds. When you have a suit you're prepared to announce as trumps at the 4 level, the number of hands that partner wants to overrule that on, but doesn't want to bid 6 is very small, and you live with that.

4♠ for us is keycard.

This is getting very frustrating as we are just repeating ourselves:
You know the image in your mind of how few hands actually want to play a new suit, that is precisely what I'm seeing when I'm thinking of how many hands you have where partner you have a side suit and partner divines what you want and you wouldn't have just guessed it right anyway.

I AM thinking of frequency. You have a large hurdle because even if hands where you want to use these bids are 10 times as frequent as hands that you want to play a different suit, you still need the bid to be useful a reasonable percentage of the time. Not being able to bid your suit, when that's what you have, rates to be very bad. However when you have a fit, you would have guessed it right more than 50% of the time, I would say significantly more. Plus you aren't completely blocked from asking for information: you could just RKC: even if that isn't your first choice. I mean if you have a side suit trick source, you can generally ruff it out anyway, it seems that side suit controls will often matter more than a side suit fit, you'll have some DEPO type response after they compete. Furthermore partner won't always know what you need, so he will get it right less that 100% of the time. So the question is what's the difference? I would say pretty small, as in less than 10%. Thus making it useful no more often that the "I want to play my own suit" hand. I don't actually have any hard numbers here, no one does. But we are certainly not gauging this the same way.

Playing 4♠ as key card seems absolutely crazy. I mean I play kickback, but can't I just play 4nt as that here? I mean isn't the ability to play spades worth surrendering one extra step?

[Zelandakh]

ArtK78, on 2013-November-06, 16:47, said:

A 4♥ opening by partner pretty much ends the discussion of choice of trump suit. After that opening, the only options are some number of hearts or a slam in notrump.

The only exception would be if responder jumped to a slam in another suit. Unless you assign a specific meaning to that call, it should be to play.

How do you play: 4♥ - (P) - P - (X); P - (P) - 4♠? (or 5m instead of 4♠ for that matter)

[ArtK78]

Zelandakh, on 2013-November-07, 08:17, said:

How do you play: 4♥ - (P) - P - (X); P - (P) - 4♠? (or 5m instead of 4♠ for that matter)

This is an entirely different situation. I can't imagine that there is anyone who would not play this as natural and to play.

When the opps go out of their way to tell you that you have made a mistake, and your hand is consistent with the opps analysis, it is best to listen to them.