[PhilKing]

mycroft, on 2013-November-05, 12:14, said:

I would like to see some good "short minor" defences and whether they do the same sort of game playing in fourth seat after "undefined minor"-p-"undefined minor".

The postions are not equivalent, since partner's pass over 1♣ precludes many of the hands where coming in is a winner.

For instance, I play extremely light overcalls and loose doubles over 1♣ (eg 4234 13 count is an auto double), so fourth seat actions without decent shape should be sound.

[kenrexford]

All right. I am done F'ing with everyone and can talk practical reality now. LOL

I have played bridge for about 33 years in an area where Montreal Relay is standard. Anyone and everyone at the local clubs plays Montreal Relay. So, I have quite a bit of experience playing against it.

A couple of observations:

1. Problems never arise for us as overcallers. Just make sure that 2♣ and 2♦ are both natural if the opponents start shortclub-pass-artificialdiamond. 1♥ shows hearts, and 1♠ shows spades.
2. Bid 2NT as minors if you can. If you have that hand, they are in trouble.
3. Use R.U.N.T. They cannot handle it.
4. By using R.U.N.T., your doubles are stronger, such that you can pull to notrump or something else logical if your partner bids some unfortunate short suit.

(R.U.N.T. or Really Unusual Notrump is a 1NT overcall showing a weak hand -- however weak you are willing to go -- and three-suited. At least 3 cards in every suit. Your third suit is diamonds.)

[PhilKing]

kenrexford, on 2013-November-05, 14:01, said:

3. Use R.U.N.T. They cannot handle it.
4. By using R.U.N.T., your doubles are stronger, such that you can pull to notrump or something else logical if your partner bids some unfortunate short suit.

(R.U.N.T. or Really Unusual Notrump is a 1NT overcall showing a weak hand -- however weak you are willing to go -- and three-suited. At least 3 cards in every suit. Your third suit is diamonds.)

I'm guessing you are a get-in-if-at-all-possible kind of guy. But bidding 1NT on some semi-balanced filth in fourth seat is madness, even if you occasionally get away with it in the Valley of the Blind.

If you want to play RUNT in second seat, I can just about understand it, but to recommend it in 4th seat, when pard could not act over 1♣ is crackers - a huge portion of the hands where you are not getting stretchered are excluded from partner's range.

[kenrexford]

PhilKing, on 2013-November-05, 14:23, said:

I'm guessing you are a get-in-if-at-all-possible kind of guy. But bidding 1NT on some semi-balanced filth in fourth seat is madness, even if you occasionally get away with it in the Valley of the Blind.

If you want to play RUNT in second seat, I can just about understand it, but to recommend it in 4th seat, when pard could not act over 1♣ is crackers - a huge portion of the hands where you are not getting stretchered are excluded fro partner's range.

You are missing the key condition a priori. The opponents are playing Montreal Relay. Normally, that means that you by definition are in the Valley of the Blind. Hence, the practical structure for when you are in the Valley of the Blind is to use the approach that most effectively works there.

I mean, when playing with a partner with whom I have no agreements, I typically bid 1NT in the Montreal Relay sequence described because it is my turn to bid. I have nothing available to partner as far as escapes or anything like that, and this works wonders nonetheless. So, if I actually had some sort of agreements and minimum standards, that would make the approach extremely conservative contextually. Madness is contextual.