# BBO Discussion Forums: 〖美国大师讲座〗为什么要打2/1 逼局体系不打美国标准体系 - BBO Discussion Forums

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## 〖美国大师讲座〗为什么要打2/1 逼局体系不打美国标准体系

### #1DJNeill

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Posted 2013-September-29, 15:21

TWO OVER ONE GF vs STANDARD AMERICAN (convenient minor)

The Problem with Standard Bidding: too many non-forcing bids force both sides to guess a lot.

Examples that demonstrate problems with standard american:

Problem 1. Responder must force to game without finding major suit length

Playing Standard American, North, opener, has one of these 2 hands:
a. AJxxx AJxxx x Kx
b. AJxxx AJxx xxx K

and the auction begins 1-2-2 as it should. South has a game forcing hand, say, one of these two:

c. Q Kxx KQx Axxxxx
d. xx x KQxx AQJxxx

First let’s consider that opener has (a) and responder has ©. After 2, South must choose between 3 (4th suit game forcing) to get more information, or 3NT (2NT and 3 would be non-forcing, and 3 would promise 4 hearts). If South chooses 3N, North should not remove to 4 lest South have (d). If South chooses 3, North has an easy 3 rebid and game is found. So 3 is the answer then.

But what if North has (b)? Over 1-2-2-3, she is stuck. If she rebids 3 that shows 5, 3 would show 6 (or a great 5), and 4 would show at least a doubleton. This might seem a little contrived. For instance often 3N will play well despite a 5-3 heart fit (or 6-2 spade fit), but in general it is better to play in the 8 card major fit when one hand has a singleton.

Problem 2. Responder must force to game somehow without stoppers in the side suits.

North: AJxxxx x Qx KQxx
South: x AQJ AKJxxx xxx
1 2
2 ?

Here, North rebids 2, waiting, and South is stuck. 2NT and 3 are nonforcing, but she has a GF hand. 3 would not be a problem on length (we all lie about minor suit length sometimes) but it is not descriptive at all (North here could raise clubs). 3 is correct in terms of stoppers, but what if North had:

AJxxxx xxxx Q AK

North raises 3 to game and South is stuck when 3N is clearly best. So this is an impossible problem.

Problem 3. Opener’s raise of the 2-level response hamstrings responder

North: AQJxx x Kxxx Kxx
South: Kx xx AQxxx Qxxx

North opens 1, and South responds 2, having too much for a non-forcing 1N response. North has an easy 3 raise. Now what should responder do? Is North maximum or minimum? Does North have 3 or 4 card support? Does North have a stopper or 6 spades? Another impossible problem.

Problem 4. Opener’s 2NT rebid is impossible to read.

North: AJTxx Kxx xx AQx
South: xx Qxx AJ9xx KJx

North opens 1 and South responds 2. North has a classic NT rebid – all suits stopped, tolerance for partner, only 5 in the opened suit. Does South continue to game or not? North may have 12 HCP or may have 14 (or a bad 15 if played that way). Or should North have anticipated this problem and rebid 3NT. What should opener have rebid with 17-19 balanced then? This is a tricky subject, and SAYC leaves these questions unanswered.

Problem 5. Showing stoppers and finding the best fit is a complete guess.

North: AQJxxxx Kx A xxx
South: x Axxx KQxxx AQx

North opens 1 and South responds 2 and North rebids 2. South, to cater to opener’s 6-4 rebids 3. North, with no stopper rebids 3. South now is not sure if North is showing a 7+ card suit (or great 6) or just denying a club stopper, so South must guess whether to raise to 4 or bid 3N, not to mention whether slam is in the offing or not. If South rebids 3N, then North passes 3N and finds partner with just one club stopper, or
bids 4 and finds partner with the actual hand (a perfecto for declaring – protecting the clubs from the lead).

Problem 6. Showing slam interest is near-impossible.

North: AJxxx KQxxx Kx Q
South: Kx AJxx AQJxx Jx

The auction begins 1-2-2, and South now cannot bid 3 (nonforcing) but is a bit too good for 4. What if North has 16 HCP? Basically both sides are about 12-16 HCP and there is no way for either side to do anything cooperative. Maybe South could bid 3 (GF) and then 4, but without prior agreement, it’s anybody’s guess.

North: AJxxx xxx AQJx K
South: Kx Ax Kxxxxxx Qx

Here it is not responder but opener that has extra values, but no intelligent way to show it after 1-2. To bid 3 is to risk partner passing, and to bid 4 is not even well-defined, but it might even be a 5-5 - hand. What can North do? South is not going to take any steps towards slam.

The result of all these little problems is one of three solutions:

1. Practice, discuss, and develop arbitrary agreements (and thus not Standard American) to minimize the number of guesses. (e.g. 1♠-2♣-3♣ = game forcing by agreement).
2. Bid quickly to avoid giving unauthorized information to partner, but the decision tends to be hasty and without full due consideration.
3. Bid slowly, choosing the least harmful guess, at the cost of giving lots of unauthorized information to partner.

I have seen #1 in use to good effect – a bad system played well is better than a good system played badly. I don’t think I would be writing this article if I thought that was an acceptable solution.

#2 is the best solution on-the-fly with a new partnership.

#3 unfortunately is the norm at the club level, whether they know it or not. But it is not their fault. The system is to blame!

Some of these problems apply to precision as well, but it's a lot better at least.

I believe the answer is to use 2/1 game forcing.

Thanks,
Dan
1

### #2lxl3256

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Posted 2013-September-29, 23:24

DJNeill, on 2013-September-29, 15:21, said:

TWO OVER ONE GF vs STANDARD AMERICAN (convenient minor)

The Problem with Standard Bidding: too many non-forcing bids force both sides to guess a lot.

Examples that demonstrate problems with standard american:

Problem 1. Responder must force to game without finding major suit length

Playing Standard American, North, opener, has one of these 2 hands:
a. AJxxx AJxxx x Kx
b. AJxxx AJxx xxx K

and the auction begins 1-2-2 as it should. South has a game forcing hand, say, one of these two:

c. Q Kxx KQx Axxxxx
d. xx x KQxx AQJxxx

First let's consider that opener has (a) and responder has ©. After 2, South must choose between 3 (4th suit game forcing) to get more information, or 3NT (2NT and 3 would be non-forcing, and 3 would promise 4 hearts). If South chooses 3N, North should not remove to 4 lest South have (d). If South chooses 3, North has an easy 3 rebid and game is found. So 3 is the answer then.

But what if North has (b)? Over 1-2-2-3, she is stuck. If she rebids 3 that shows 5, 3 would show 6 (or a great 5), and 4 would show at least a doubleton. This might seem a little contrived. For instance often 3N will play well despite a 5-3 heart fit (or 6-2 spade fit), but in general it is better to play in the 8 card major fit when one hand has a singleton.

Problem 2. Responder must force to game somehow without stoppers in the side suits.

North: AJxxxx x Qx KQxx
South: x AQJ AKJxxx xxx
1 2
2 ?

Here, North rebids 2, waiting, and South is stuck. 2NT and 3 are nonforcing, but she has a GF hand. 3 would not be a problem on length (we all lie about minor suit length sometimes) but it is not descriptive at all (North here could raise clubs). 3 is correct in terms of stoppers, but what if North had:

AJxxxx xxxx Q AK

North raises 3 to game and South is stuck when 3N is clearly best. So this is an impossible problem.

Problem 3. Opener's raise of the 2-level response hamstrings responder

North: AQJxx x Kxxx Kxx
South: Kx xx AQxxx Qxxx

North opens 1, and South responds 2, having too much for a non-forcing 1N response. North has an easy 3 raise. Now what should responder do? Is North maximum or minimum? Does North have 3 or 4 card support? Does North have a stopper or 6 spades? Another impossible problem.

Problem 4. Opener's 2NT rebid is impossible to read.

North: AJTxx Kxx xx AQx
South: xx Qxx AJ9xx KJx

North opens 1 and South responds 2. North has a classic NT rebid – all suits stopped, tolerance for partner, only 5 in the opened suit. Does South continue to game or not? North may have 12 HCP or may have 14 (or a bad 15 if played that way). Or should North have anticipated this problem and rebid 3NT. What should opener have rebid with 17-19 balanced then? This is a tricky subject, and SAYC leaves these questions unanswered.

Problem 5. Showing stoppers and finding the best fit is a complete guess.

North: AQJxxxx Kx A xxx
South: x Axxx KQxxx AQx

North opens 1 and South responds 2 and North rebids 2. South, to cater to opener's 6-4 rebids 3. North, with no stopper rebids 3. South now is not sure if North is showing a 7+ card suit (or great 6) or just denying a club stopper, so South must guess whether to raise to 4 or bid 3N, not to mention whether slam is in the offing or not. If South rebids 3N, then North passes 3N and finds partner with just one club stopper, or
bids 4 and finds partner with the actual hand (a perfecto for declaring – protecting the clubs from the lead).

Problem 6. Showing slam interest is near-impossible.

North: AJxxx KQxxx Kx Q
South: Kx AJxx AQJxx Jx

The auction begins 1-2-2, and South now cannot bid 3 (nonforcing) but is a bit too good for 4. What if North has 16 HCP? Basically both sides are about 12-16 HCP and there is no way for either side to do anything cooperative. Maybe South could bid 3 (GF) and then 4, but without prior agreement, it's anybody's guess.

North: AJxxx xxx AQJx K
South: Kx Ax Kxxxxxx Qx

Here it is not responder but opener that has extra values, but no intelligent way to show it after 1-2. To bid 3 is to risk partner passing, and to bid 4 is not even well-defined, but it might even be a 5-5 - hand. What can North do? South is not going to take any steps towards slam.

The result of all these little problems is one of three solutions:

1. Practice, discuss, and develop arbitrary agreements (and thus not Standard American) to minimize the number of guesses. (e.g. 1♠-2♣-3♣ = game forcing by agreement).
2. Bid quickly to avoid giving unauthorized information to partner, but the decision tends to be hasty and without full due consideration.
3. Bid slowly, choosing the least harmful guess, at the cost of giving lots of unauthorized information to partner.

I have seen #1 in use to good effect – a bad system played well is better than a good system played badly. I don't think I would be writing this article if I thought that was an acceptable solution.

#2 is the best solution on-the-fly with a new partnership.

#3 unfortunately is the norm at the club level, whether they know it or not. But it is not their fault. The system is to blame!

Some of these problems apply to precision as well, but it's a lot better at least.

I believe the answer is to use 2/1 game forcing.

Thanks,
Dan

A：AJxxx AJxxx x Kx

B: AJxxx AJxx xxx K

C: Q Kxx KQx Axxxxx

D: xx x KQxx AQJxxx

N：AJxxxx x Qx KQxx

S: x AQJ AKJxxx xxx

1S-2D

2S-?

N再叫2S，等待，南家陷入困境。2NT与3D不逼叫，但他有一手逼局的牌。3C在长度上不是问题（我们有时在低花长度描述上会有点出入）但这根本就不是描述性的（北家现在会加叫C）。3H在挡张上是正确的，但如果北家有以下牌：

AJXXXX XXXX Q AK

N：AQJxx x Kxxx Kxx

S: Kx xx AQxxx Qxxx

N：AQTxx Kxx xx AQx

S: xx Qxx AJ9xx KJx

N：AQJxxxx Kx A xxx

S: x Axxx KQxxx AQx

N：AJxxx KQxxx Kx Q

S: Kx AJxx AQJxx Jx

1S-2D-2H,南家不能再叫3H（不逼叫）但牌力比4H又好太多。如果北家有16HCP怎么办？基本上双方都是12-16HCP 且双方都没有办法进一步显示合作。或许南可以叫3C（GF）然后叫4H，但没有事先沟通，仅仅是猜测。

N：AJxxx xxx AQJx K

S: Kx Ax Kxxxxxx Qx

1- 在练习和讨论体系时采用主观约定（这样就不是美国标准体系）以减少猜测。

（例：1S-2C-3C=需要约定为逼局）

2- 速达，避免给同伴不明确信息，但这样的决定就显得行动草率，缺乏充分的考虑。

3- 慢慢叫牌，选择最少的不利猜测，但代价是传递给同伴很多不明确信息。

This post has been edited by lycier: 2013-December-05, 21:39

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### #3nbxkh

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Posted 2013-September-30, 00:45

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### #4lycier

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Posted 2013-September-30, 02:33

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### #5lycier

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Posted 2013-September-30, 17:48

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Posted 2013-October-01, 20:09

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### #9hongxl

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Posted 2013-October-09, 06:03

lycier, on 2013-September-30, 17:48, said:

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### #10hdgh001

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Posted 2013-December-05, 00:17

lycier, on 2013-September-30, 17:48, said:

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