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I bid the right slam. GIB takes it out.

#1 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2013-September-22, 03:06

MP, Robot tourney, best hand South


Perhaps I should bid 7C, (and hope that GIB does not pull it to 7H, oh and that it makes)
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"

"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
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#2 User is offline   Bbradley62 

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Posted 2013-September-22, 22:35

Based on the 5 bid, it appears that GIB thinks 4N is RKC for hearts, not clubs. This seems odd to me. Why are these hands not in your myhands records? (I wanted to see if another player had a similar auction with explanations.)
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#3 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2013-September-22, 23:26

It was a while back (16 August 2013) played while on hols. Saved up reporting it for a rainy day. Anyway as at the time of posting this it is still there in MyHands:

http://online.bridge...rname=1eyedjack

I have just notice that only two pairs played in Clubs, and that at the 5 level making just 11 for 91%. I like to think that I would have made 12, as DD suggests (at which a heart lead is the only lead to hold it to 12). It is certainly where you want to be. It may well be that the two players in 5C would have played it differently to make 12 had they been in 6.

Someone was actually allowed to make 6N for 100%, when GIB misdefended quite poorly at trick 8 despite that the hand was pretty much an open book (both defenders had shown out in different suits).

I possibly misbid with 4C. GIBberish may say that this shows a double fit and maybe I am supposed to bid a new suit at 3 level to show a fit just for Clubs. I have seen treatments like that in the wild. Maybe someone can confirm? In that case it has to make a choice between 2 viable trump suits when responding to RKCB. Not sure that I agree with its choice but in that context it would not be entirely unreasonable to use Hearts as the anchor suit. With one partner I have an agreement that if more than one suit is agreed then 4N RKCB is always in the higher ranking suit. May not be optimal but saves against system foulups which would cost more in the long run than would departing from the theoretically optimal treatment

BUT, if for whatever reason H are agreed for responding to RKCB, I still think that it should respect a signout in a different suit that has been expressly bid and raised. Had I held a 3rd Heart I might still have wanted to play in Clubs, and then my 4C bid would have been within parameters (assuming system as described above). Indeed I don't think that it should have been necessary for Clubs to have been supported prior in the auction (or even bid at all). In F2F games I have in my lifetime on several occasions manufactured Blackwood in one suit only to sign out in slam in another, which may have been bid for the first time at the slam level. Not that I expect GIB to go to that extreme.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"

"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
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#4 User is offline   Bbradley62 

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Posted 2013-September-23, 10:44

This one answers some of the questions you raised:


4 apparently shows a double fit; I don't understand why it should.

Bidding 7 does lead to GIB bidding 7 :(
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#5 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2013-September-23, 11:49

View PostBbradley62, on 2013-September-23, 10:44, said:

4 apparently shows a double fit; I don't understand why it should.

I don't really mind that bit. Like I said, I doubt that it is that uncommon a treatment if I have come across it before. If there IS a double fit then I can imagine circumstances when it would be useful to know, and if there is a way of confirming Clubs without expressing a double fit (ie by bidding a new suit at the 3 level) then that may be a solution of sorts. Confirming the double fit may be the only route to signing out in 4M as well as keeping slam in the second suit in the frame.

If I misbid the hand according to the system then I have to share some of the culpability. The reason it happened is because GIB/server was playing up and not giving me the meanings of my alternatives when mousing over. This does happen occasionally, mainly when I am Androiding.

But really my main point is that even if we have a double fit and I have shown it with 4C, I would still like a chance to choose the trumps. I get that this hand was MP and H scores more. But a making contract outscores a failing one even at MP. And a 4-4 fit is in many occasions likely to be safer than 5-3 (or even 5-4). I would be interested to know if GIB would have left 6C at IMP, when the decision is more clearcut. I suspect that it would have bid the same, but I may be maligning it.

It goes back to a general criticism of GIB that I have voiced before: If GIB is presented with an option to pass and it has already described its hand entirely, then it should be heavily geared toward passing rather than second-guessing a partner who had the same information when suggesting a strain. Another common example is the uncontested sequence (starting with the human) 1N-2C-2D-3H-4H ... GIB will ALWAYS convert that to 4S despite that opener has shown a preferance for a 4-3 Heart fit over a 5-2 Spade fit in the full knowlege of the extent of those fits.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"

"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
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#6 User is offline   georgi 

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Posted 2013-October-10, 16:20

View PostBbradley62, on 2013-September-23, 10:44, said:

This one answers some of the questions you raised:


4 apparently shows a double fit; I don't understand why it should.

Bidding 7 does lead to GIB bidding 7 :(


Over new minor suit introduced after major transfer, opener could:
- bid 3NT to refuse any fit.
- bid 3M with max
- bid 4M with min
- bid unbid suit below 3NT ( supposedly there is at least one free call) to show only fit in minor ( 4+ cards) and refuse fit in major
- bid 4m to show double fit

It helps to reveal more and let responder to handle further.

#7 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2013-October-10, 17:30

View Postgeorgi, on 2013-October-10, 16:20, said:

Over new minor suit introduced after major transfer, opener could:
- bid 3NT to refuse any fit.
- bid 3M with max
- bid 4M with min
- bid unbid suit below 3NT ( supposedly there is at least one free call) to show only fit in minor ( 4+ cards) and refuse fit in major
- bid 4m to show double fit

It helps to reveal more and let responder to handle further.

I very much regret the bidding misunderstanding that I had with GIB on this hand.
I regret it NOT because I had a misunderstanding. I regret misunderstandings always. But I PARTICULARLY regret it in this instance because it has given you an opportunity to sidestep the principal point central to the purpose of the thread, which is NOT dependent on this misunderstanding.

The point of this thread is that even if we had the double fit that I had promised in the auction (but lacked in reality), I would still like to have the option to choose Clubs as the trump suit without having GIB override that decision in favour of playing in the major.

Are you now telling me that, having expressed a double fit, there is no circumstance in which the minor suit slam is superior to the major?
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"

"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
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#8 User is offline   georgi 

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Posted 2013-October-11, 07:41

View Post1eyedjack, on 2013-October-10, 17:30, said:

I very much regret the bidding misunderstanding that I had with GIB on this hand.
I regret it NOT because I had a misunderstanding. I regret misunderstandings always. But I PARTICULARLY regret it in this instance because it has given you an opportunity to sidestep the principal point central to the purpose of the thread, which is NOT dependent on this misunderstanding.

The point of this thread is that even if we had the double fit that I had promised in the auction (but lacked in reality), I would still like to have the option to choose Clubs as the trump suit without having GIB override that decision in favour of playing in the major.

Are you now telling me that, having expressed a double fit, there is no circumstance in which the minor suit slam is superior to the major?


Over 4 ( or 4 minor showing double fit ) , 4N is blackwood over as that is the certain fit, because 3minor could be just artificial to force to game.

Over Stayman and 2M reply could bid 2/3OM to do so, but here 3OM would be natural or spltiner ( in hearts transfer case on level 3, and on level 2 5-5majors ).

So only responder could realize what is happening.

Very likely ( as it's simple tweak hopefully ). v28 GIB would be able to stay over secondary fit or standalone suit by opener where blackwood is over another suit.

So if you ask over hearts, but later stop on 6C/7C , GIB would pass if you have displayed 8+cards there or if partner shows at least 5 there.

Currently it does it only over 6NT no matter how you get to it and over which suit was blackwood and whether you asked for kings,queen, etc.

So that may solve a responder problem to bid minor slam ( if he wants ).

An example here would be blackwood instead of 4 and stop on 6/7

And example of standalone desire to play could be:

1 - 2
2 - 3
4NT(over )

Now you have several options to stop:
- any level of as that's your probable fit.
- any 6+ level in ( although you may skip to give easy fit 3) as partner showed them naturally
- any 6+NT level if no trump contract is needed
- any 6+level in as that's partner's suit and he might heard enough to gear up.

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