[Chamaco]

Scoring: IMP

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West North East South

 Pass  Pass  1♣    1♠
 Dbl   3♠    Pass  Pass
 Dbl   Pass  Pass  Pass
 

3S is a preemptive raise.
I was East and I was confused from the bidding

My first doubt was immediately if bid or pass over 3S:
If I doubled, what would show ?
Should it show extras ?
Or could be also a minimum hand with shortness (takeout) ?

I chose to pass, assuming that Dbl would show extras: but this creates a problem in the interpretation of my pard's double.

Initilally I thought pard's double was takeout, but after some quick thinking, I thought "What is pard supposed to bid if he REALLY wants to double for penalty?", say holding
a hand that does not want to bid 3NT and has no other prospective game on ?


So the questions are

Question a.
immediately over 3S, by east, what does double show ? Extras or just shape ?
The shape-showing X clears the smoke, because now pard can leave the double in if he is penalty oriented; but it becomes harder to differentiate strength

Question b.
What does west double show after east passed ?
If it is takeout, what should west bid if he wants to double but cannot bid 3NT ?
If it is penalty, what should he bid if he has a t/o hand ?

[Chamaco]

Oops, mistyped the title: Ben, could you correct the title to:

" "Responsive" doubles after opps overcall and jumpraise" ?


(BTW, for distracted people like me , it would be a nice feature in the forum to be able to correct title typos)

[arrows]

MHO,

I would say that if negative double have never been invented, one wouldn't have
this problem, west would have to bid some number of clubs, or getting fancy,
cue 2♠.

I would have cued 2♠, for me it doesn't deny ♥ strain.

East cannot double because lack of extras. bid with extras is the rule of physics.

West's double does have extras, says "this hand belong to us", East might have
to find a bid other than pass, for there's 10 cards in two suits.

[inquiry]

Quote

Question a.
immediately over 3S, by east, what does double show ? Extras or just shape ?
The shape-showing X clears the smoke, because now pard can leave the double in if he is penalty oriented; but it becomes harder to differentiate strength

Double of 3♠ has two meaning based upon partnership agreement, one is penalty (this is not my agreement). Second is takeout, and in this case promises long first minor and usually 4 in other minor. With your hand, I would have doubled 3S

Quote

Question b.
What does west double show after east passed ?
If it is takeout, what should west bid if he wants to double but cannot bid 3NT ?
If it is penalty, what should he bid if he has a t/o hand ?

Second double is always takeout. It is just too wildly unlikely that WEST can have enough spades after a takeout double to warrent this being penalty double. By using second double as takeout, it allows opener to pass with four strong spades and wait to pass the next double....

The bidding I think that should happen is as follows...

1C-(1S)-X-(3S)
X-(P)-5C-all pass

Ben

[HeartA]

I agree with ben's most comments, with one disagreement: I wouldn't dbl over 3S with East's hand. I would bid 4C after pd's second dbl (over 3S).

There was possibility that West has good spades for his first dbl (say, club and spades were switched). But after North's raise to 3S (preemptive), this possibility becomes unlikely.

[inquiry]

HeartA, on Jan 24 2005, 03:07 PM, said:

I agree with ben's most comments, with one disagreement: I wouldn't dbl over 3S with East's hand. I would bid 4C after pd's second dbl (over 3S).

There was possibility that West has good spades for his first dbl (say, club and spades were switched). But after North's raise to 3S (preemptive), this possibility becomes unlikely.

Ok, surely pass with EAST is ok, and maybe best. The problem I saw is that you are so weak, and you are so short in spades and partner is short in spades and not strong, that you suspect the bidding is likely to go 4♠ on your left as soon as you pass (it will not in this example, but this is an exception). The double here clues your partner into the distributional hand you have even if you lack the traditional stregnth for this bid. Maybe at this vul, pass is better however. But the double does show this type of distribution... if you ahve hearts, just bid them.

Ben

[Chamaco]

inquiry, on Jan 24 2005, 06:22 PM, said:

Second double is always takeout. It is just too wildly unlikely that WEST can have enough spades after a takeout double to warrent this being penalty double. By using second double as takeout, it allows opener to pass with four strong spades and wait to pass the next double....

What would you bid with West after:

1♣-(1♠)-Dbl-(3♠)
pass-pass-?

Holding this hand ?
KQx-QTxx- KTxxx-x

This hand:
1) does NOT want to bid 3NT
2) has only invitational values
3) has a stiff in opener's suit;
4) does not want to leave 3S undoubled

So, if double is only takeout, what can West bid ?

(If you would simply pass the actual example hand, just add 1 or 2 hcp, so that he hand is still unsuitable to bid 3NT but is suitable for penalty, and tell me what you would bid)

[whereagles]

How about pass? Good enough at teams, I'd say.

[Chamaco]

whereagles, on Jan 25 2005, 10:06 AM, said:

How about pass? Good enough at teams, I'd say.

Ok, so what should EW bid with this combined holding ?

West
KQx-QTxx- KTxxx-x
East
xx- Kx-Axx- KQJTxx


E S W N
1C-(1S)-X-(3S)
?-pass-?

[inquiry]

Chamaco, on Jan 25 2005, 06:36 AM, said:

whereagles, on Jan 25 2005, 10:06 AM, said:

How about pass? Good enough at teams, I'd say.

Ok, so what should EW bid with this combined holding ?

West
KQx-QTxx- KTxxx-x
East
xx- Kx-Axx- KQJTxx


E S W N
1C-(1S)-X-(3S)
?-pass-?

No group of bids work 100% of the time of course. This hand is a problem because you took a shot to show one feature (other two suits limited value) with a negative double rather than a different feature (balanced/semi-balanced with good spade stoppers and limited value with a NT bid ealier). Now the preempt has forced last guess on you.

There are a couple ways you might weave your way to a laydown 3NT or to a 3♠x contract. One begins with you simply taking a chance and bidding 3NT now. You are unlucky not to catch two diamond honors in partners hand, bjut are lucky to catch such solid clubs. Or your partner can make the "taketou" double of 3S with only 3 diamonds, but with two small spades,and 3 only diamonds, I would not do that (give me one less spade or ore more diamond I would).

But if you are looking for the perfect mthod that works on everyhand, you will be stuck. Here EW get lucky... your partner's hand is not suitable for its own takeout double, and you have the hand where you wish he could. BTW.

[Fluffy]

take out doublers don't make penalty doubles on the suit they didn't want to play at first.

You can bid 3NT if you really feel in that mood, but I hardly can imagine a passed hand that really desires to double opponents at the 3 level when partner has opened in 3rd position.

[Chamaco]

Fluffy, on Jan 25 2005, 01:29 PM, said:

I hardly can imagine a passed hand that really desires to double opponents at the 3 level when partner has opened in 3rd position.

This is a very good point.

If West was NOT a passed hand, in the 2 combined holdings I showed, would you pass ?

West
KQx-QTxx- KTxxx-x
East
xx- Kx-Axx- KQJTxx

E S W N

1C-(1S)-X-(3S)
?-pass-?

[Gerben47]

Fluffy also made a good comment. You don't want to make a penalty double of a suit you were previously doubling for take out. Sometimes you can't get to them like in the constructed hand, that's life.

[pclayton]

Robson made a very telling comment in one of last year's MSCs, I can't remember the problem, but his comment was, "...then I'll make one of those doubles that partner can figure out what it means, BY LOOKING AT HIS HAND".

With the actual 1444, you have to bid 4♣ is you are going to bid at all. With Mauro's 1453, you can double. Pard will figure it out by looking at his stiff.

[inquiry]

pclayton, on Jan 25 2005, 11:42 AM, said:

Robson made a very telling comment in one of last year's MSCs, I can't remember the problem, but his comment was, "...then I'll make one of those doubles that partner can figure out what it means, BY LOOKING AT HIS HAND".

With the actual 1444, you have to bid 4♣ is you are going to bid at all. With Mauro's 1453, you can double. Pard will figure it out by looking at his stiff.

Vodoo bridge... I know people who play this way... look at your hand and figure out logically from the clues what my bids mean. They get it right, sometimes, they get it wrong sometimes. It is asking too much I think. I say this, and yet I use garazzo 2/3 doubles and in the balance seat, I double with shortness or length in their suit and expect partner to get it right...but after all, he has already denied 2-3 in their suit.

And even with this hand, if partner doubles in the balance seat, will I really know he wants to defend looking at my hand? Could he not be 5-5 and asking, emploring me to pick between red suits? He can't bid 3NT to do so (to play), he can't bid 4C to do so (delayed support), he could bid 4di I guess but that might place too much emphasis on ratty diamond suit with stonger hearts.

[pclayton]

The very fact that it came from Robson tells me it aint 'voodoo bridge'. If you want to call Mauro's 3451 hand a Garozzo 2/3 double, so be it. Partner will probably pass (Unless the ODR is unsually good).

The actual hand is one where the opps have walked an 11 card fit. Surely pard can't figure out that your double on the 1444 is takeout playing 2/3's?

[inquiry]

pclayton, on Jan 25 2005, 03:54 PM, said:

The very fact that it came from Robson tells me it aint 'voodoo bridge'. If you want to call Mauro's 3451 hand a Garozzo 2/3 double, so be it. Partner will probably pass (Unless the ODR is unsually good).

The actual hand is one where the opps have walked an 11 card fit. Surely pard can't figure out that your double on the 1444 is takeout playing 2/3's?

Well, i don't know how others play 2/3 doubles but this auction isn't one on which I use that tool. We are not certain to have the majority of points, sort of the minimum defining condition for that bid. I do use 2/3 doubles on auctions such as 1M-P-2m (2 over 1 gf), 1m-P-2N-bid, etc, and those yummy redbl auctions.