[junyi_zhu]

flytoox, on Jan 18 2005, 05:18 PM, said:

junyi_zhu, on Jan 18 2005, 05:08 PM, said:

flytoox, on Jan 18 2005, 04:49 PM, said:

I personnally think here 4H is the right bid. If you start with 2N, you still dont know what to do. After 4H, 5S really tells your story perfectly. You have a great hand, you have everthing under control, ur only concern is the trump quality.

that's not true, give your partner SAKQJx HAx Dxxx Cxxx, do you have good play in 6S? or Even SAKQJx HAxx Dxx Cxxx, do you really like your chance in 6S?
Or SKQJTx HAx DQxxx xx, do you have any play in 6S? Actually, if you really want to splinter 4H, the next bid can't be 5S, it should be 5H to show your void in hearts, now partner knows you have both minor suits controlled, void in hearts, but not strong enough to ERKC dirrectly, he would then re-evaluate his hand and draw the correct conclusion.

I doubt pd would have one of those hands given by you when he bid 4S. 4H promises short only, if pd has HA he may not devaluate it. On the other hand. Pd rates to have long heart in this sequence. Of course, there are hands where we might not have slam. But you wont pass 4H, would you?

There is no perfect bid here. If you start with 2H, or 3H, or whatever, if LHO rates to 4H and pd double it. What do you do? You still have problem.

On the other hand, I think 5H is a good choice.

Did I say what I would like to bid over 1S here? I am just saying that 4H followed by 5S can't be right for this hand, because 5H over 4H is clearly a better bid for this hand. What's the difference between 5H and 5S? 5H shows void in hearts and 5S doesn't. Also, it just doesn't make sense to me that your claim of 5S as asking for trump suit quality. It doesn't make sense, because if you only care about trump quality and nothing else, why don't you just bid 5S directly over 1S? Why do you give extra information to opps?
5S here can't be simply asking for trump quality, it also asks for the overall playing strength and 5H serves the same purpose and it just tells your void in hearts. 5S to ask for trump quality is one of the most widely abused bids, even by some pretty good players. Actually it applies only in some very rare situations I believe.

[flytoox]

junyi_zhu, on Jan 18 2005, 05:43 PM, said:

flytoox, on Jan 18 2005, 05:18 PM, said:

junyi_zhu, on Jan 18 2005, 05:08 PM, said:

flytoox, on Jan 18 2005, 04:49 PM, said:

I personnally think here 4H is the right bid. If you start with 2N, you still dont know what to do. After 4H, 5S really tells your story perfectly. You have a great hand, you have everthing under control, ur only concern is the trump quality.

that's not true, give your partner SAKQJx HAx Dxxx Cxxx, do you have good play in 6S? or Even SAKQJx HAxx Dxx Cxxx, do you really like your chance in 6S?
Or SKQJTx HAx DQxxx xx, do you have any play in 6S? Actually, if you really want to splinter 4H, the next bid can't be 5S, it should be 5H to show your void in hearts, now partner knows you have both minor suits controlled, void in hearts, but not strong enough to ERKC dirrectly, he would then re-evaluate his hand and draw the correct conclusion.

I doubt pd would have one of those hands given by you when he bid 4S. 4H promises short only, if pd has HA he may not devaluate it. On the other hand. Pd rates to have long heart in this sequence. Of course, there are hands where we might not have slam. But you wont pass 4H, would you?

There is no perfect bid here. If you start with 2H, or 3H, or whatever, if LHO rates to 4H and pd double it. What do you do? You still have problem.

On the other hand, I think 5H is a good choice.

Did I say what I would like to bid over 1S here? I am just saying that 4H followed by 5S can't be right for this hand, because 5H over 4H is clearly a better bid for this hand. What's the difference between 5H and 5S? 5H shows void in hearts and 5S doesn't. Also, it's just doesn't make sense to me that your claim of 5S as asking for trump suit quality. It doesn't make sense, because if you only care about trump quality and nothing else, why don't you just bid 5S directly over 1S? Why do you give extra information to opps?
5S here can't be simply asking for trump quality, it also asks for the overall playing strength and 5H serves the same purpose and it just tells your void in hearts. 5S to ask for trump quality is one of the most widely abused bids, even by some pretty good players. Actually it applies only in some very rare situations I believe.

You cannot bid 5S directly over 2H because if you bid 5S after 2H, pd will go to 6S with H control. Isnt 5S asking for heart control over 2H?

[junyi_zhu]

flytoox, on Jan 18 2005, 06:29 PM, said:

junyi_zhu, on Jan 18 2005, 05:43 PM, said:

flytoox, on Jan 18 2005, 05:18 PM, said:

junyi_zhu, on Jan 18 2005, 05:08 PM, said:

flytoox, on Jan 18 2005, 04:49 PM, said:

I personnally think here 4H is the right bid. If you start with 2N, you still dont know what to do. After 4H, 5S really tells your story perfectly. You have a great hand, you have everthing under control, ur only concern is the trump quality.

that's not true, give your partner SAKQJx HAx Dxxx Cxxx, do you have good play in 6S? or Even SAKQJx HAxx Dxx Cxxx, do you really like your chance in 6S?
Or SKQJTx HAx DQxxx xx, do you have any play in 6S? Actually, if you really want to splinter 4H, the next bid can't be 5S, it should be 5H to show your void in hearts, now partner knows you have both minor suits controlled, void in hearts, but not strong enough to ERKC dirrectly, he would then re-evaluate his hand and draw the correct conclusion.

I doubt pd would have one of those hands given by you when he bid 4S. 4H promises short only, if pd has HA he may not devaluate it. On the other hand. Pd rates to have long heart in this sequence. Of course, there are hands where we might not have slam. But you wont pass 4H, would you?

There is no perfect bid here. If you start with 2H, or 3H, or whatever, if LHO rates to 4H and pd double it. What do you do? You still have problem.

On the other hand, I think 5H is a good choice.

Did I say what I would like to bid over 1S here? I am just saying that 4H followed by 5S can't be right for this hand, because 5H over 4H is clearly a better bid for this hand. What's the difference between 5H and 5S? 5H shows void in hearts and 5S doesn't. Also, it's just doesn't make sense to me that your claim of 5S as asking for trump suit quality. It doesn't make sense, because if you only care about trump quality and nothing else, why don't you just bid 5S directly over 1S? Why do you give extra information to opps?
5S here can't be simply asking for trump quality, it also asks for the overall playing strength and 5H serves the same purpose and it just tells your void in hearts. 5S to ask for trump quality is one of the most widely abused bids, even by some pretty good players. Actually it applies only in some very rare situations I believe.

You cannot bid 5S directly over 2H because if you bid 5S after 2H, pd will go to 6S with H control. Isnt 5S asking for heart control over 2H?

This is another wrong bid. Can you contruct a hand that only needs specific H information only to bid 6S? Even if you hold such a hand, you still can get the the heart suit information by some cuebids at low level. For example: SAKxxx Hxx D- CAKQxxx, you can just bid 3H, not 5S(even 5H ask ERKC would have some merrits if you need a grandslam swing). And I guarantee that you may hold such kind of hands once in more than 30 years. Direct jumping to 5 level to ask specific suit controls is another widely misused bid by most players. Anyway, enough for me, I'd better stop here.

[cf_John0]

inquiry, on Jan 18 2005, 10:07 AM, said:

You have no choice now but to bid 5♠ slam invite with good trumps. This is of course, not a horrible option. But I agree wiht those who are not overly happy iwht the splinter 4♥. The problem with 4♥ is your parnter lacks first or second round diamond control, lacks first round club control, and your splinter might be a singleton, and it is possible your partner may lack first round heart control. How can you expect him to bid anything except 4♠. You set your self up for this situation when you bid 4♥ (if you planned along to follow 4♥ with 5♠, then give yourself credit for being quite clever... if you hadn't planned on a 5♠ rebid, then you are in a bad way.

Wonderful!

[Winstonm]

Thanks for all the discussion everyone. There are a couple of points I think to be made and they are only my opinion so please take them only for what they are worth.

First, with you holding so many controls in the minors this hand is quite slam orientated, though minimal.

Second, the overcall is in heart, making it less likely that your pard has wasted heart cards.

Third, partner should for the most part have decent to good spade support as this is 1 of 2 suits missing the most HCPs.

Finally, Fred G. has stated that a bid should either tell your pard something or ask something. My own vote is for 5H.

Why? This confirms 3 things in 1 bid. One: first round heart control. Two: First round club control. Three: first round diamond control. Bypassing the lower ranking suit to show the void/ace must without question show the missing two control - what else could you hold to make this bid? If missing 1, you could always cue bid the 1 you have and if partner cue bids the other then you could cue bid hearts. By bypassing both, you show both.

Finally, this hand is so slammish and partner is so likely to hold cards that work it is worth the risk (I think) to venture to the 5 level.

Anyway, that's my thoughts.

WinstonM

[slothy]

I agree with Winston on this....

Sorry Mauro (i only read your first post about passing 4♠ and if you changed your opinion subsequently then sorry i missed it) ... there is no way i would pass this hand out..

My only fear is that we would potentially be missing a grand opposite a reasonable opener. With your hand partner most likely is looking at no controls (outside trumps) and a 4 S bid by him/her seems mandatory. Even with rock-solid trumps he would not make a move beyond 4♠ missing controls in minors.

A 5♠, as some have proposed, seems to be passing the buck onto partner. With an empty J and K in the minors and decent trumps he might still pass 5- even though you asking him to bid 6 with good trumps - he may cut his losses and pass, not envisioning you with the minor suit holding you have.

If your p is tuned in to your 5 ♥ bid, as Winston said, it MUST be showing (first round) controls in the 2 lower suits, and this catch-all bid is used exactly for this purpose.

If p has

AKxxx
Qxxx (most likely to have ♥ length)
xx
Kx

the GS is on.

Similarly with

A(Q/J)xxx (three VERY small ones)
Hxxx
Q
Qxx

you also want to be in the small slam but over a 5♠ invite by you he may decide to pass it.

With the first holding i would expect him to co-operate and bid 6♣. With the second to bid 6♠.

I would expect him to sign-off in 5♠ with the unlikely scenario of having middling honours in ♠ or an overabundance of points in ♥. The decision for him to assess his hand as such was telegraphed by your 5 ♥ bid.

Alex

[Chamaco]

slothy, on Jan 22 2005, 02:59 AM, said:

Sorry Mauro (i only read your first post about passing 4♠ and if you changed your opinion subsequently then sorry i missed it) ... there is no way i would pass this hand out..

No need to be sorry for a bridge bid

Anyway, just to make my point clearer, I think that :

1) if you splinter, you have to accept pard's signoff;
2) it is entirely understable to see a slam here; but if you think the hand is slammish, splinter is the wrong bid, because:
- a. it takes away so much room
- b. you do not get additional info on pard's hand: it is almost certain that pard will have no other bid but 4S over our 4H bid.


Hence, my point is NOT that the hand is too weak for a slam.
I am only saying that:
if we were planning to bid on pard's 4S after a splinter, there is something wrong.
Splinters must be used to describe you shape+strength to pard, and accept hgis choice, not to simply show shape and either
1. start cuebidding above game level, or
2. ask for RKCB after haveing given away valuable info to the defense.
In both cases, pard will signoff anyway and will rarely make use of the info of our shortnes , whereas the defense will.
This is foolish in my opinion, to say the least.

With the given hand, much better than a splinter is to use a Neanderthal bid like 4NT RKCB right away or 5S right away asking to bid a slam with good trumps. :-)

After all Neanderthal men did survive in conditions where I myself would have many troubles (what about you, my Sloth friend ? ), why shouldn't I trust them ?

[slothy]

Chamaco, on Jan 21 2005, 10:36 PM, said:

Slothius Sapiens said:

Sorry Mauro (i only read your first post about passing 4♠ and if you changed your opinion subsequently then sorry i missed it) ... there is no way i would pass this hand out..

(1) No need to be sorry for a bridge bid

(2) After all Neanderthal men did survive in conditions where I myself would have many troubles (what about you, my Sloth friend ? ), why shouldn't I truste them ?

(1) To be brutally honest Mauro i wasnt sincerely sorry ) Was just being polite and showing some Tuscan provincial good manners...

(2) The only problem if i was a Neanderthal is that i would have problems finding a point to plug in my microwave in my cave dwelling to heat up my mammoth casserole

But yes i personally would never have bid 4 H in the first place. With two of my regular partners (both Homo Sapiens btw not Neanderthal although one of them has an embarrassing big chin and is more hairier than is normal (the female one) ) we would make a 5♥ bid to show exactly this sort of hand straight off (exclusion key card not applicable in this scenario as Hs is too high up the scale). Partner would know would to do now

.... and go off -1 in 6 hee hee

Alex..

(PS Juventus non sanno giocare il calcio yaya)

[Pavell]

Winstonm, on Jan 18 2005, 12:38 AM, said:

Dealer: North Vul: Both Scoring: IMP

♠ 109864 ♥   ♦ AK108 ♣ AJ95

N  E  S  W 1S 2H 4H P 4S P  ?

What if any call do you make now?  What is your reasoning?

- If you use C-SAYC ( http://bullbridge.com/generic47.html ), the answer is very easy, because you NEVER will need to make blind hand evaluations. By C-SAYC Rules partner will open 1 in Major with 5+ card suit and b1 to b4 (Base #1 to Base #4). South has 29 pts (go to the site to find out how to count your pts and your B#) which is a Responder's b3 (Base of 3) and at least a Super Trump Fit of 10 cards, which give to him the right to upgrade his B# to b4. The sum of both partner's B# will give to him the minimum of Play Level of 5 (PL = 5).
- So the Bidding will be: 1♠ 2♥ 4♣ which is ALWAYS Control Points Asking (CPA), prompting North to show his Controls by the ForcePoint's CPA Rule (A = 6 CP, K = 4 CP, Singleton = Void = 2 Control Points). In this case South even do not need to know the exact B# of your Partner. The Control Points will supply to him the right Play Level. The 1st step answer of 4♦ (or Pass if West bid) will show 8 or less CP, the 2nd step answer of 4♥ (or X if West bid) will show 10 CP, the 3rd step answer of 4♠ (or the bid over West's bid) will show 12 CP, the 4th step answer will show 14 CP, the 5th step = 16 CP and so on by 2 CP more for any of the next steps. South has 18 CP. With 32 to 36 CP combined he will go for a Small Slam, with 38+ CP he will go for the Grand Slam. So, if North shows 12 CP or less, South will try to play 4♠ or 5♠, but if North shows 14 to 18 CP, South will bid 6♠. Of course, if North shows 20+ CP the game is a Grand Slam! Using this method you won't need to visualize your partner's hand and NEVER will miss a Slam. To check this, put what hand you want for North (of course, a minimum opening hand with 5+ cards in ♠) suit), and answer for North's CP (Control Points). The Splinter bid suggested by the author is too limited for supplying the proper information. I hope the author will publish the real North's hand, so all of us will check our suggestion. If I'm right, do not forget to read the short explanation for C-SAYC on http://bullbridge.com/generic47.html , it will help you to resolve all your Bidding problems complitely . Success.

[Winstonm]

Thanks everyone. This has been a good discussion. As far as the splinter/no splinter question, it is fair debate. My thinking is that if you bid 3H then the only real slow down would be if partner bid 3NT, although even then he could hold the right cards for a slam to be odds on: Axxxx, KQ10, xx KQx so you really haven't helped yourself too much. Besides, you will always have the same problem in that partner won't have a cue bid to make unless it is hearts, and even a heart cue bid does not mean slam isn't possible.

As for 4H, this seems to be the most descriptive bid availble; it shows good trump support, single or void in the suit bid, cards in the other two suits and in my opinion slam interest....why tell the opps more than they need to know if there is not a possibility of slam.

Sure, pard will almost always have to sign off - you knew that when you bid 4H, which is why the question is what to do now?

My vote is still for 5H. When this deal occurred, partner followed with 6C, a grand slam try. As I had stretched a bit for the 5H call, I declined.

WinstonM