[csdenmark]

State your name - please!

Today and yesterday too i noticed the information from BBO management that members have the right to privacy - and therefore they don't need to put up their real identity on their ID.

I assume this message is a result of several complaints to management. I certainly agree that anybody has the right to privacy - but dealing with other people you also need to apply to code of conduct. Refuse to provide basic personal information when you are asked to is not protection of privacy it is simply misconduct - violation of code of conduct.

Please correct BBO policy

Yours Claus - csdenmark >

[fred]

Quote

State your name - please!

Today and yesterday too i noticed the information from BBO management that members have the right to privacy - and therefore they don't need to put up their real identity on their ID.

I assume this message is a result of several complaints to management. I certainly agree that anybody has the right to privacy - but dealing with other people you also need to apply to code of conduct. Refuse to provide basic personal information when you are asked to is not protection of privacy it is simply misconduct - violation of code of conduct.

Please correct BBO policy

Yours Claus - csdenmark >

Actually we have not received any complaints. What inspired the
lobby message was that I noticed a lot of lobby chat messages
saying things like "need 1 - no privates please!".

Why shouldn't a player be able to remain anonomous if he or she
chooses to do so?

Why do you need to know people's real names?

How do you expect us to verify that people are using their real names
even if we make it "BBO policy" that everyone has to do this?

Why shouldn't players who like to play a billion conventions be able
to use all of the space in their profiles to list them? This is a useful
feature that makes it easy to avoid playing with such people

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[Cave_Draco]

I assume that the "private" referred to is ability, ;D.

Online, I am Draco or Dragon... there are some who know my "real" name, they do me a courtesy by not using it, tya.

Ability - private?

[hallway]

THE GENERATION GAP ??? ?

I was taught to value my name and be proud of who I am and to extend that to all with whom I came in contact. I was taught that the greatest insult I could extend to another was not to acknowledge their name and/or to withhold mine from them.

That does not mean that in this new online age I need to disclose my full identity. But I chose to retain the given name my parents bestowed upon me and as there are millions of Maureens around the world I feel no loss of privacy by disclosing it online.

For me not to do so would (for me) be insulting the people who join me at a table. When people join me at a table and their profiles are a series of 'privates' I am insulted - I have no understanding of why they should wish to join me - I have this feeling of 'what are they hiding from?" "fancy being ashamed of your own name !" (When my boys reached 16 I gave them their birth certificates, told them why I chose the names I did and a statutory declaration form - should they not like the names or have reason to change them , send in the form, now was the time for them to chose to be who they wished to be)

Cave_Draco sent me an IM , when I went to respond I realised I did not know his name. Here was someone being helpful and here was I about to insult him or at the very least be grossly discourteous by responding with no salutation acknowledging him. I wrote "Hi (sry I don't know your name :-[) doing so with a genuine feeling of shame and embarrassment. His response to that cured me quick enough

I set up a table and a player CHOSE to join me as my partner, s/he was forgiving, helpful, friendly - all one could ask/hope for - I though was most uncomfortable when I had to address him/her by the rather odd username so I asked for a name - the reply 'secret' - my feelings of bon amie subsided rapidly

I am a product of my generation :

As BBO grows the User names will of necessity have to become more and more offbeat. At a table there are times when one wants to address a comment to a particular person - is it unreasonable to have a players profile give one a 'given' name to which they will respond . ??? After all ones fellow players have no way of knowing whether that is in fact a name that features on their birth certificate or not !!! In the world of cyber space that is not important - by using a 'real' name I perceive them as a person and one is therefore inclined to treat them with the friendly courtesy that membership of BBO demands of us.

Obviously this is not something Fred can change

Except ,perhaps, by changing the Profile Form to read Online Name instead of Real Name - maybe then more people would be inclined to show a 'given' name and a skill level.

If you really want to be or have a reason to be a NON person you can just log on as invisible - BUT should you really be a NON person to the people YOU choose to play with ???????

The Generation Gap ??? ?

[JRG]

"I was taught to value my name and be proud of who I am and to extend that to all with whom I came in contact.  I was taught that the greatest insult I could extend to another was not to acknowledge their name and/or to withhold mine from them. ..."

It must be the generation gap you referred to Maureen (one of my daughters is named "Sonja Maureen"). I also feel uncomfortable when I encounter people who do not use a name, any name, in their profile. I do, however, play with or against these people. I like to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they have a reason that is not simply an affectation, for withholding their name -- though I would prefer in such cases that such a person make up a pen name.

My feelings about this extend to my login name: I would have preferred to use my actual name, but that wouldn't work (at least when I originally tried it), so I chose to use my initials.

John

[Cave_Draco]

Sorry Maureen.

I went to college with an online friend, he calls me Draco or D, online: I will be 51 on Tuesday, ;D. That gives an indication!

The name you are given, my given names mean Beloved Wolf, are not always the names you would choose to be known by.

btw, the correct pronoun for Dragons is... it!

In case of doubt... http://members.tripo...37/page-17.html

[hrothgar]

Quote

THE GENERATION GAP ??? ?

I was taught to value my name and be proud of who I am and to extend that to all with whom I came in contact. I was taught that the greatest insult I could extend to another was not to acknowledge their name and/or to withhold mine from them.

I think that you are dead on when you posit the existence of a generation gap. In this day and age, many people maintain multiple virtual identies and actively prefer that attributes of different IDs don't bleed between one another.

For example, I picked up the nickname "Hrothgar" neigh unto 20 years ago. I prefer using this nome-de-plume when I am actively engaged in various forms of recreation. I like having some separation between this and "Richard Willey".

As an example, I just went through a very thorough background check for me new job. [Working in computer security does that] I'm quite happy that some of the more inflamatory flame wars that I have particpated in can't easily be Googled.

[badderzboy]

I would like to add my vote behind Maureen's comments. I am a youngster per se (34) and have my name, e-mail address and skill level (beginner) on my card as I've been playing a year now. It is a matter of courtesy to do this as my partner won't expect an expert, they can refer to me by name etc. If people don't want to play with a 'beginner' they have the choice to find a better player!
I will avoid playing with 'private' written all the card as what system do they play even!

I can understand people prefering nicknames or 'handles' but it's pleasant to call people by their real names as well!

[pbleighton]

1) Although I make my name and email available, I can understand those who don't wish to do so (I am 48, FWIW).
2) However, I don't think that people should be allowed to designate their skill level as "Private". I will play with anyone, but I know there are a lot of stronger players who only want to partner with Advanced and Expert players. Better to let them know up front that I am an Intermediate (optimistically), than to have them play a hand or two, then leave.

[Rhutobello]

Although I make my name and email available, I can understand those who don't wish to do so

Yes agree, but look at this profile:

Name: Private :okay for me, but this tells me back off, don't come close, I trust no one.

Name: "Oluf" okay this tells me about a person that will be known as Oluf. This name I can use to communicate with him and can feel some sort of common relationsship. But since we both are just is a couple of eletrical impulses, our names don't have to be the real ones, but it gives more posetive responses than "Private".

okay, okay I am the young one, only 59 ;D

[inquiry]

Hi...

I give my name... (ben), and off and on I have posted and unposted my email address. I took it off, eventually, because it became a problem...and no the kind you might expect. I wasn't getting unsolicited email, or anything. But my "potential" BBO partners would leave in droves as soon as they saw my email address... so it made finding a table in the early days on BBO difficult. My address that ran away partners? notanexpert@hotmail.com ... that stands for no - tan - expert... as I never get out in the sun... lol. I wonder what other read it as????

Ben

[Laird]

Hello Maureen

Where I come from there is a saying...
' We're all Jock Thomson's bairns', which loosely interpreted means we are all of the brotherhood of man.
I agree with you that it is nice and comforting to be able identify, at least symbolically, with those you have passed a pleasant period of time and to be able to identify them more than friend, neutral, enemy or private.
Perhaps its a cultural thing but even when we are given a name to use, as the friendship grows it's not long before it's abbreviated to a much shorter and more convenient form for this type of communication eg Maureen to M, Charlie to C and John to J.
I applaud you Maureen and your sentiment that it's ' Kindness that binds Societies together' but perhaps in this high speed digital age its a sentiment that's no longer convenient, but if we come across it we should nurture and cherish it, for before long it may indeed be 'Gone With The Wind'.
Regarding my identity... what you see is what you get.
Regarding ability; I don't think there's one for stupid and stupendous in the same hand.

Kind regards
John

[csdenmark]

Dear Fred

Please let me clarify a bit.

Quote

Why shouldn't a player be able to remain anonomous if he or she
chooses to do so?

On other sites I know of you are not asked to state your basic personal information. I really like the ability to do so on BBO. Whenever I meet new people - the first thing for me to do is a short presentation - my name and why I start a contact. In scandinavia, and from the contributions here I understand not only in scandinavia, it is basic for dealing with other people. - I don't want to deal with people not applying to code of conduct -on BBO I simply cut communications. Fred please tell me - is those turned into black able to see they are so by me - or are they only prevented to reply? For me such is only a problem regarding opps. - I never accept an
anonumeous partner. But I really feel uncomfortable as I occacionally need to play with those. They cannot ask me for additional information and I don't think that is right either.

Quote

Why do you need to know people's real names?

I don't need people's real names. In fact I don't care at all. - All I want is to try only to deal with decent and serious people. People stating their names as "Just call me Joe" or "Deep Purple" stamps themselves - I think we very much agree on that!

Quote

Why shouldn't players who like to play a billion conventions be able
to use all of the space in their profiles to list them? This is a useful
feature that makes it easy to avoid playing with such people

I think it is very fine people like to use all of the features this game offers. Convention Card is the place to state such. - Again I think we agree.

Quote

How do you expect us to verify that people are using their real names
even if we make it "BBO policy" that everyone has to do this?

I know quite well you are not able to verify such - and therefore I didn't asked for it at all. - All I ask for is to change the policy so that players are informed of dealing with other people is a serious matter and that standard procedures for such are the guidelines.

In software you are doing a lot to prevent cheating - so if interested to make modifications in this area - I am not sure needed - you may simply test the strings for:

• Name: Private or empty: No logon else logon
  
• E-mail: @ included else clear the string

Yours Claus - csdenmark

[inquiry]

Hi Claus,

I got lost a little in your post, so if I misquote you or answer something that you didn't ask, please forgive me.

If you mark someone as "enemy" and check your "ignore chat from enemy" button...then you will not see their messages. This could be a problem during tournment play, as you may face friend and "foe" alike. So do yourself a favor and open your profile and allow chat from enemies.

Here is how I use the "ignore chat from enemy" option. If I am online and am being "hassled" by an enemy, and there is no yellow online to report this too, I check "ignore chat from enemy." Otherwise, I simply report the behavior to a yellow. Simple enough.

As for playing with or against anonymous players. I, like you, have a preference of not playing with people who fail to mention at least a little in the profile... most important is some basic bidding system... sayc, 2/1, precision, ks, polish club, Goren, strong 2's... something. If it is all private, I will not join that table. However, I am not so worried about an actual name, and I could care less about email. The country of orgin is interesting, but not necessary... I even know for a fact that a few people list countries they are not really from. :-)

I think a filled out convention card would be very useful...but you don't see a convention card when you point to a potential partner's name. What you see is the profile. So, again, I think at a minimum, something should be listed in the profile.. Even a "I can play any system in the world" would be nice addition... that may well be someone to avoid too... :-)

I think the BBO requirements are just about right, and we, the users, can decide who we play with. Some people will not play with "novices" or "beginners" (a damn shame), some will not play with people who list no country or name, others with people who do not list a skill level. But the good news is there are plenty enough of players on the BBO even picky people can find partners.

Ben

[fred]

Quote

Dear Fred

Please let me clarify a bit.

Quote

Why shouldn't a player be able to remain anonomous if he or she
chooses to do so?

On other sites I know of you are not asked to state your basic personal information. I really like the ability to do so on BBO. Whenever I meet new people - the first thing for me to do is a short presentation - my name and why I start a contact. In scandinavia, and from the contributions here I understand not only in scandinavia, it is basic for dealing with other people. - I don't want to deal with people not applying to code of conduct -on BBO I simply cut communications. Fred please tell me - is those turned into black able to see they are so by me - or are they only prevented to reply? For me such is only a problem regarding opps. - I never accept an
anonumeous partner. But I really feel uncomfortable as I occacionally need to play with those. They cannot ask me for additional information and I don't think that is right either.

*******
When you make a person your enemy you are the only
one who knows about this. Your enemies experiences
with the BBO software will not be impacted in any way as
a result of you making him an enemy.
*******

Quote

Why do you need to know people's real names?

I don't need people's real names. In fact I don't care at all. - All I want is to try only to deal with decent and serious people. People stating their names as "Just call me Joe" or "Deep Purple" stamps themselves - I think we very much agree on that!


********
I do not agree. I can think of several reasons why a "decent
and serious person" would not want to use his/her real name.

- Women are sometimes the victims of online harassment
- People whose names make it obvious that they belong to
a certain race or religion are sometimes the victims of racism

True, we have policies for dealing with people who use
racist remarks or sexually harass people, but I suspec that
it is so unpleasant when this happens to you that people
will remove their real names to avoid it happening again.

- Famous expert players who just want to enjoy playing
bridge and do not want to be constantly asked their
opinions about bridge hands, whether they want to
play with an unknown person as partner, etc...
- People who are trying to avoid specific other people
for any number of possible legitimate reasons
- People who are insecure about their own bridge ability
and they do not want other people to know who they are
as a result.

*******

Quote

How do you expect us to verify that people are using their real names
even if we make it "BBO policy" that everyone has to do this?

I know quite well you are not able to verify such - and therefore I didn't asked for it at all. - All I ask for is to change the policy so that players are informed of dealing with other people is a serious matter and that standard procedures for such are the guidelines.

In software you are doing a lot to prevent cheating - so if interested to make modifications in this area - I am not sure needed - you may simply test the strings for:

• Name: Private or empty: No logon else logon
  
• E-mail: @ included else clear the string

******
I strongly disagree with the idea of changing anything in
this area for new members. I think that one of the reason
our site has grown so quickly is that people do not feel
threatened when they sign up for a user ID. Many people
are (reasonably) very wary about giving out their real names
e-mail addresses to an "unkown and untrusted" source.

I will consider making some kind of change in "The Rules of
this Site" (the first article in the Bridge Library), but I really
doubt that this will make any difference. I am certainly not
going to make any new "rules" (as I explained, even if I agreed
with you, it would not be practical to make rules in this area).
What I might change is "guidelines for user profiles".

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this discussion.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

*****

[Codo]

Hi all,

I thought, that after Freds statement everything was said ond done. But obviously, I was wrong (again).

I think we all agree, that it is good behavoiur to give his/her name.

But who are we, that we want other people not to play at bbo just because they have another idea about what is wrong and right?

Sorry Claus, I can not disagree more with your ideas about the login/logout.

F.e. From other online-games, I knew that it happened, that some ill people tried to force a real life contact to other community members or floated their e-mail.
If you ever had this experience yourself, you may be very very carefull with your real name and your e-mail adress.
Another reason: I know at least three players, who like to stay anonymous here, just because too many people know them under their normal account and they don`t always want to talk to anyone. I think they have any right to do so.

So again, we are not the judges, if everybody should open all his details. Even if we both agree, that it is proper and correct behaviour for us.

And Ben, you know I am a fan of your posts, but I don`t think, that it is a shame to refuse somebody due to his skills.
If I am not in the mood to play too strong opps, or with or against too weak players, I am absolute allowed to do so. Maybe I will loose the contact to very wonderful and skilled people, but it is my right to do so.

Another point: If I play with my regular pard, we want to practice. The stronger the opps are, the more we learn. So whenever I host and play with him, I will decline any nov/beg. and don`t think, that this is a shame. OTOH I must confess, that he serves more often and accept anybody as opponent, so even we disagree.

Kind Regards

Roland

[hrothgar]

One more piece of information:

Professionally, one of the issues that I need to concern myself with is what is known as "Identity Management".

The online world very much seems to be migrating towards a model where individuals are able to establish multiple online identities (sometimes called avatars). Avatars are designed so that they can not be mapped on to real world identities. Fred and others have already pointed out why many individuals are uncomfortable providing their true names, addresses, etc.

Avatars are deliberately "stateful" in that reputations can be attached to them and histories can be established. For all intents and purposes, this type of identity can and should be considered in the same way as someone's real world ID.

I recognize that this may seem strange to many folks, however, this is rapidly becoming a fact of life.

For anyone with literary ambitions, its is extremely interesting to note the impact that mythology and fantasy have on computer systems. There is a strong overlap between Science Fiction / Fantasy fans and computer science professionals. Accordingly, many concepts/conceits from one environment leak over into the other [the classic examples are the words "Wizard" and "Daemon"] To return to our original example, many primitive societies had a notion of a "true name" which was given to individuals at birth. A magician who knew an individuals true name was thought to have great power over that person. Accordingly, most people also established secondary or even teriary names be which they were normally addressed. Its interesting to note that we seem to be returning to this type of model. [There is a good write up of all this available in the Golden Bough by Frazer.]

[Cave_Draco]

I'm not sure that you haven't got it inverted... <To return to our original example, many primitive societies had a notion of a "true name" which was given to individuals at birth. A magician who knew an individuals true name was thought to have great power over that person. Accordingly, most people also established secondary or even teriary names be which they were normally addressed. Its interesting to note that we seem to be returning to this type of model.>

My "true" name is Draco, ;D.

Maybe online identity will supercede "real" names?

[pbleighton]

"For anyone with literary ambitions, its is extremely interesting to note the impact that mythology and fantasy have on computer systems. There is a strong overlap between Science Fiction / Fantasy fans and computer science professionals. Accordingly, many concepts/conceits from one environment leak over into the other [the classic examples are the words "Wizard" and "Daemon"] To return to our original example, many primitive societies had a notion of a "true name" which was given to individuals at birth. A magician who knew an individuals true name was thought to have great power over that person. Accordingly, most people also established secondary or even teriary names be which they were normally addressed. Its interesting to note that we seem to be returning to this type of model. [There is a good write up of all this available in the Golden Bough by Frazer.]"

As an English major (formerly with literary ambitions), it is gratifying to see that literary and cultural criticism has seeped down to the techie level. How things have changed ;D

Go T.S. Eliot!

[mycroft]

My name is Mycroft. Okay, I have another name the Government knows me by, and it's even in my BBO profile. But I *prefer* Mycroft; it was given to me by someone whose opinion I rate very highly. And I *don't like Mike* - that definately is *not* my name, despite what millions may think. So I go by mycroft.

I see nothing wrong with this - I expect that someday it will be added to my legal name, but I'm lazy. I have no problems referring to anyone by the name they choose to be known as. If older people (I'm not one of those, by the way) feel uncomfortable with not having a handle that's recognizably human, I'm sorry (despite the fact that all of my "other personalities" have been recognizably, if obscurely, "real names"). I'll go halfway - I'll give you a simple, sensible, consistent name to refer to me by.

I, too, refuse to seat anyone who is "private, private, private, from nowhere" at my table - I think you should at least give me some idea of who's trying to enter my "house". But that's my personal rule, and I don't expect others to honour it. Frankly, I use ultimate anonymity to "insult" companies who expect me to provide them all my personal information to read one of their stories or buy one of their products - "A Body, a@b.invalid, 1060 W. Addison, Chicago IL" is pretty standard. So I react negatively to those who wish to treat me the same way. I know that's putting my opinions into their actions, and I know that's wrong, but it ain't gonna change, neither.

But I'm happy to play with Arbeir from France, who likes to play pretty standard. I don't know anything more about this person than "private, private, private from somewhere in the world" - he or she could be from right next door and plays forcing pass with his regular friends, for all I know, and I certainly don't know how to track him or her down by name - but I have a "face" to hang an opinion on, and it looks like this person is willing to have a face to put his or her reputation on.

The more people force me to do what they want - especially where my personal privacy is concerned - the more I will subvert it. The more people let me do whatever I want, the more I am likely to be societally traditional. I am *very* happy at BBO, and strangely enough am acting much more "normally" here than most (which would surprise most people who know me).

Just another Michael's random opinion.