[Fluffy]

♠AKJ109x
♥9xxx
♦Kx
♣x

our side vulnerable, theirs not IMPs, partner is dealer


1 ♠ - 4 NT - 5 ♠ -6♣
pass-pass - ? ?

[MrAce]

6♠

I think we are in fp auction and pd is passing when we have AK spades+Kx ♦

[inquiry]

Your guess is as good as mine. the only thng that sticks out is partner's spades can't be good enough to bid on (queen high at best). So I will bid a confident 6♠.

[CamHenry]

6♠ wtp? I'm assuming 4NT is two suits, not necessarily minors; whichever 2 it is I have half a defensive trick if that. Partner could double with 2 tricks to tell me not to bid on; he knows I've got a big spade fit for him but he doesn't know it's this good instead of JTxxxx.

[the_clown]

6♠

Partner failed to X missing AKJ109 of ♠ so he probably has a nice fitting hand.

[Fluffy]

CamHenry, on 2013-July-31, 01:36, said:

6♠ wtp? I'm assuming 4NT is two suits, not necessarily minors; whichever 2 it is I have half a defensive trick if that. Partner could double with 2 tricks to tell me not to bid on; he knows I've got a big spade fit for him but he doesn't know it's this good instead of JTxxxx.

Nah, its minors, with hearts and an unpassed hand partner you wouldn't go over 4♥ so quickly.

[ArtK78]

6♠. When in doubt at IMPs, bid again. Even if you are wrong, you are likely to be less wrong than if you pass or double and you are wrong.

If partner didn't want to double 6♣, then I sure don't want to do it.

[Fluffy]

My partner doubled, so I passed with that, but I was thinking that I would double if I had the chance, lack of side source was worrying me.

I though my partner had a clear forcing pass, not sure what you think:

♠8xxxxx
♥AQ52
♦-
♣AJ10

[gszes]

ArtK78, on 2013-July-31, 09:15, said:

6♠. When in doubt at IMPs, bid again. Even if you are wrong, you are likely to be less wrong than if you pass or double and you are wrong.

If partner didn't want to double 6♣, then I sure don't want to do it.

question: since our 5s cannot be a sac but, given the colors, has to be a bid
that responder thinks has a chance to make----does this not set up a FP
situation and pass by opener a statement about the possibility of slam and
doing so missing AK of trumps.

Are we not bidding 6s (I would look for 7 if there was a decent way to do it)
because p has suggested it despite missing the AK of trumps? IE would
partner not x 6c with any normal minimum even if they could not see a
single trick in their hand????? Qxxxx KQJx QJ Qx or some similar such
dreck??????

[PhilKing]

It's just not a forcing pass for me - sorry. Don't play any of that forcing at red stuff. When we bid 5♠, the ball is in partners court - he either bids a slam or he doesn't. We have said we don't hold chopped liver, but lack the ability to cue - end of story.

I think pard should just pot a slam (6th spade, three first round controls) and hope to make it on one of those loser on loser thingies, or maybe we make on the opening lead. It's pretty surreal that South is screwing around with better diamonds than clubs, but whatever. Their sac is cheap, so we are getting good pot odds for slam.

[jogs]

Fluffy, on 2013-July-31, 12:46, said:

My partner doubled, so I passed with that, but I was thinking that I would double if I had the chance, lack of side source was worrying me.

I though my partner had a clear forcing pass, not sure what you think:

♠8xxxxx
♥AQ52
♦-
♣AJ10

If that isn't a clear penalty double, what is?

[jogs]

PhilKing, on 2013-July-31, 17:44, said:

It's just not a forcing pass for me - sorry. Don't play any of that forcing at red stuff. When we bid 5♠, the ball is in partners court - he either bids a slam or he doesn't. We have said we don't hold chopped liver, but lack the ability to cue - end of story.

I think pard should just pot a slam and hope to make it on one of those loser on loser thingies, or maybe we make on the opening lead.

Why is
9xxx _____ AQ52
clearly only one loser in hearts?

[cherdano]

It's not a forcing pass for me either, and I don't understand bidding on to 6♠. We do have a defensive trick opposite and many losers.

[JLOGIC]

Completely bizarre to me to think we are in a forcing pass

[Free]

Why would you be in a forcing pass situation? You've never shown any strength to make 5♠, you might as well have bid it as a sacrifice against 5m or to give opps a difficult decision.

[Zelandakh]

If 5♠ did not show any strength then perhaps we should have bid 5♦ last time around. What is the difference between 5♦, 5♠, P then min♠, X then min♠ for everybody anyway? It seems that several posters have major differences in approach here.

[MrAce]

Zelandakh, on 2013-August-05, 07:03, said:

If 5♠ did not show any strength then perhaps we should have bid 5♦ last time around. What is the difference between 5♦, 5♠, P then min♠, X then min♠ for everybody anyway? It seems that several posters have major differences in approach here.

I agree that we could have bid something different than 5♠ perhaps. But we did not and problem was given to us at this stage.

I understand Phil, Arend and Justin. I am not one of the FP fanatics either and my responses in previous FP topics will support my claim on this.

However this particular auction should be FP auction imo. 5♠ bidder is not saving. He believes they have at least a good shot at making 5♠. And they bid slam, opener remains silent.

The level they bid is important to me. A lot of situation where they end up at 5 level i am totally with above names. Not when they bid slam though, after we opened, pd did bid under pressure (or failed to make a stronger bid, idk what was available for Gonzalo except than 5♠) vulnerable vs not . To me this is not a good time to try to defeat them peacefully and sit on their slam silently. Of course we can construct hands which fits in this category but it is small target imo. It is whole an other story when they end up at 5 level though. One may ask what is the big difference between 5 level and slam. If we think what a FP or Double means and what do they encourage or discourage, that 1 level (5 or 6) has huge difference in the mean of chances to defeat, chances to make if we decide to bid, expected bonuses gains and losses etc etc...Combined with this vulnerability. So it was not only vulnerability which made this a FP auction for me.


Basically they are not going to play their slam without being doubled when we open and bid game, red vs white. They are trying to get over this board as cheap as possible % 90 of the time and trying to remain passive is a very bad idea imho, with the excuse that we did not have the chance or failed to create a FP auction.

[JLOGIC]

Righty has generally shown 6-6 and LHO has bid 6 of a minor. Just because we opened and bid 5S does not mean we know whether we can beat them or not, we would need a minor suit trick to have any hope of that and often we won't have that.

Yes, we bid 5S, we were jammed and will often have a good fit and some shape and some major suit values and feel compelled to bid 5S. For opener to be forced to double with a large majority of his hands (almost all) because they don't have slam interest seems like a really flawed agreement when we have no idea if we were making or if they are making. I think you are wrong that 90 % of the time they are down when they bid 6C, it's a pretty major bid to bid 4N even white/red, that hand will have a lot of shape and could easily make opposite a decent fit and not much else.

The most important thing is for partner to be able to double because he actually thinks they are down and wants us to stop bidding and maybe increase the penalty. The most typical occurence is all pass in this type of spot as far as I'm concerned, but if we have no D and great offense in passout we can save with knowledge that partner doesn't think we are beating them and that is a big gain (compared to partner doubling in front of us with almost all hands and us having to defend 6m X making), and if we have great O and no D and partner doubles for penalty in front of us we can safely pass.

I don't agree with the thought that we are on the offense here and they are on the defense, one of their hands has shown extreme shape and no matter what the vulnerability is that is still true. We need to be able to focus on whether we think we can actually beat them or not, not be in a situation where we force ourselves to double them in order for partner to involve us in a making slam decision. It is way more likely to be their hand than our hand because they have shown much more playing strength than we have, and that is a bad time to be in a forcing pass. We want to be in a forcing pass when we know it is our hand.

[MrAce]

You write all these things, which i agree mostly. But i do not understand one thing; why letting them not make doubled is more important than giving more edge to ourselves about making the right decision when stakes are very high, at slam level ?

I mean you do not have to call it a FP, but don't you think pass should be used for other reasons than its natural meaning when we open and reached to game, red vs white, and they bid slam (not by a jump) ?

Maybe i am too naive but i think losing some imps for a double (which you may be true that % 90 is overrated, but i am sure you know from experience that it is unlikely than likely that they are making it.) should be less concern than making the right decision.

[Fluffy]

I strongly consider that playing forcing pass on this concrete position is superior, you are risking very little, forcing yourself to double or bid means you might find a lucky save, or lose a few IMPs for playing doubled. But having a forcing pass available adds 33% to opener's options, which should increase slam accuracy enough to be worth the slams doubled and made which will most often not compare with the same contract so will be worth very few.

But that is really not so important, your rules either say you play it or not, most people play that if you make a game bid having a cuebid available like 5♠ here there is no FP which makes sense.

After this hand I've added a new rule to my FP agreements, if we bid game vul vs not and a passed hand pushes we are in FP, surely it won't be perfect, but I will be happy for the most part of it.

Last time I had a FP disaster, Del Monte redoubled his 5♠ and made an overtrick (could be held to 11 if I guessed the lead), alas! had we really both knew we were in FP I would no doubt had bid 6♥, which would go -500 vul vs not for a 1 or 2 IMP loss. Having your agreements clear is more important than what they really are.