[aleatory]

1NT - (P) - 2♣ - (2♥) - ?

Strong NT (15-17), Stayman promises at least one 4 card major (could be weak with 5-4 or longer majors)

What's a good bidding scheme here?
How do I act with 3 or less spades? 4-5 spades? with or without a stopper?
What if the overcall is 2♠?

[Zelandakh]

Simple and perfectly fine for most players is to play (over 2♥) P = no major; X = 4 hearts; 2♠ = 4 spades, essentially ignoring the overcall. After 2♠ it is a little more difficult but P = <4 hearts; X = 4 hearts follows from a similar logic. That might get us in trouble if partner has, for example, a weak 4351 hand but the risk is worth it to get hearts in immediately.

[P_Marlowe]

We play X as T/O, i.e. X showes heart shortage,
pass 3+ hearts.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[PhilKing]

Double for take-out over both is easily best imo, since you can catch them whichever of us has the stack.

By bidding 2♠ with four, you give up on that. Over 2♥, 2♠ should show five.

[1eyedjack]

PhilKing, on 2013-November-05, 08:03, said:

Double for take-out over both is easily best imo, since you can catch them whichever of us has the stack.

By bidding 2♠ with four, you give up on that. Over 2♥, 2♠ should show five.

Presumably you play pass as forcing? I agree that it would be a strange hand to bid 2♠ in front of partner's possible penalty double of ♥. But if you remove 2♠ from the box, is there any benefit to playing t/o X in both seats rather than penalty?

[PhilKing]

1eyedjack, on 2013-November-05, 09:32, said:

Presumably you play pass as forcing? I agree that it would be a strange hand to bid 2♠ in front of partner's possible penalty double of ♥. But if you remove 2♠ from the box, is there any benefit to playing t/o X in both seats rather than penalty?

Advantage of tox is that pard may have nothing and pass out our non-forcing pass with a bust.

[jallerton]

PhilKing, on 2013-November-05, 10:14, said:

Advantage of tox is that pard may have nothing and pass out our non-forcing pass with a bust.

Isn't there an equal disadvantage that partner may have nothing and be stuck for a call over our t/o double?

[kenberg]

It seems to me that the main problem with playing the double of 2♥ as penalty is that it won't often come up. Let's consider the situation when it does. Assuming that 2♥ was natural, just showing hearts, I doubt it is often bid on five. So there are six hearts with the 2♥ bidder, and probably of decent quality. I won't be doubling on a three card holding, and I want my four to be of decent quality. Now partner will not have bid 2♣ on a weal hand with two hearts. So for all this to happen, 1NT-pass-2♣-2♥-X penalty, the hearts are four in my hand, six on my right, three with my partner. OK, people do bid 2♣ with 4=3=5=1 weak hands, but usually not with three small hearts, or at least I don't. Bidding 2♣ would get us into a 4-3 fit any time pard has four hearts and even if he plays very well he will not like Qxxx opposite xxx for a trump holding. I would just pass the 1NT with a weak hand and three small in a potential trump suit.

Bottom line, if you play the double for penalties I think that you will never (never? well, hardly ever) find partner with a weak hand when you are holding a decent four card heart suit, partner has bid Stayman, and rho has bid 2♥.

I can see the point of distinguishing between four and five card spade holdings though.

[PhilKing]

jallerton, on 2013-November-06, 17:01, said:

Isn't there an equal disadvantage that partner may have nothing and be stuck for a call over our t/o double?

Not sure. I don't believe so - may be wrong. I suspect the tie-breaker may come down to judgment, which I guess would favour tox.

[1eyedjack]

If partner has a bust, despite which he has wheeled out Stayman, then he will have length in the opponent's suit (unless you play a non-standard garbage stayman). It is rather unlikely that you will be sitting there with a penalty double opposite a bust in which partner also rates to have trump length. Or if he does, then you are probably still safe for another round, until the psych is exposed lol.

So anyway, my point is that if you play the double for penalty, I don't think that you should be particularly scared of sitting opposite a bust. That does not make the penalty usage best, but it eats in the argument expressed against it, I think.

[SteveMoe]

Would expect 2♠ shows 4 or 5 cards.
Double shows 2-3 ♥ and 3 ♠, warning against 2N.
When partner can be weak, the double by opener is usually takeout or optional takeout. OT would show 3♥ at the 2-level and 3♠.
Pass would deny above hands, and include 4 and 5-card ♥ holdings. Responder should reopen with a double if very short in ♥ and inv+ values.
3♣/♦ would likely be 5-6 cards and 5 cards in the majors.