[phoenix214]

Your holding these 13 good cards:
AKQxxxx
AKxx
-
Ax
All green, bidding goes (p)-p-(3♦) to you. You decide to double, other opp raises to 4, partner pass, opp pass. Is 4S an underbid here and i should bid 5D/5S or is my partner supposed to make a move if he has something in his hand, due to the fact that i bid this way, instead of just going 4S directly over 3D?
Thanks in advance

[SteveMoe]

You haven't mentioned whether this is MPs, IMPs or Board a Match. It might matter.
The double got you off to a good start.
In IMPs, my preference is to count on partner for one trick. (This might also come from ♥ length in a weak suit). I rebid 6♠ (partner chose not to introduce ♥ freely).
With a 2-loser I'd bid 5♠ (what I rate to make) in MPs and BAM, expecting partner to move with a reachable cover card.

[gszes]

I have to admit I do not care for the x to begin
the proceedings. We need p to appreciate their
major suit cards if we are going to arrive in any
marginal slam (no matter if it is hearts or spades).

Since it is easy for me to convert any heart bid to spades
(unless p is heading to slam that is) starting here with
a 4d bid and converting the expected 4h bid to 4s goes a long
way toward showing p the importance of any major suit cards
they hold and the generally worthless minor suit cards for slam.

If p cannot appreciate a hand like xxx QJxx xxx xxx as worth a
5s bid after starting this way then you need to talk more. I do not
know how the bidding would have gone if you had bid 4d but at least
the current problem is avoided:)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Having said the above---if you do not have confidence that p will
be able to read your 4s bid it may indeed just be best to bid 6s but that
seems a shame when 7c 7h and even 7s and 7n are still in the picture --
not to mention when spades are completely wrong and the hand belongs in
hearts of rarely clubs.

[phoenix214]

Good point, i forgot to mention it is imps, pairs, Swiss tournament.
I usually do not like the idea of just blasting, but i think with these types of hands it has cost me a few hundred imps or so.
Partner had a hand of
xx
JTx
xxx(do not recall, but nothing relevant, maybe a queen)
KQxxx

7 was making on either clubs 3-3, HQ onside or H-C squeeze. I took 12 because did not try to squeeze, but in 4 it did not matter much

[HighLow21]

4♠ is a dramatic underbid, but depending on your system you'd want to either double again or cue-bid 5♦. This about shows what you have.

Note that shooting 6♠ is a big mistake here because with the following hand...

♠x
♥Qxxxxx
♦T98
♣xxxx


...6♠ is in jeopardy but 7♥ is a lock.

[phoenix214]

Well yeah, i got that 4S is an underbid, but what is the difference between, Direct 4spades over 3diamonds, and double then 4 spades. I guess in these kind of situations i have ~ different bids.
4M
5D
5M
X->4M
X->5D
X->5M
Im actually interested how do these bids differ.
I suppose a direct 5M is something like:raise me if you have a fitting honor?
4M is to play
5D could be a strong major hand?
but what does the X->4M bid show? Is it simply partner I have OM tolerance as well? or please make a move if your not a complete bust?

[akwoo]

I think it's best to play that X -> 4M shows about a trick less than the hand you posted, and a direct 4M about 2 tricks less. A direct 3M is reserved for hands with less distribution.

[mike777]

assume 7c is best here:

clearly pard will not hold long spades or hearts.

[bsanders25]

What are the downfalls of just a second X? Then another bid after partner responds.

[phoenix214]

Well ok, so from what i get - Direct 4S:4Losers, X->4S:3Losers, Direct 5S-ASK for help in spades, X->5S:2Losers?

[kenberg]

I think that it is just life here that whatever agreement that you have, you will then have hands where you wish you had a different agreement. On this hand there is no reason partner cannot have Qxxxx in clubs and, perhaps, Kxx in diamonds. Maybe Jxx in hearts. Of course you never get anywhere being pessimistic. So when have you done enough? When is it partner's turn to decide that while you may be playing him for something, he has more? I don't know, and I take it you are saying that you are not so sure either. I probably would have bid it as you did. I suppose one could also discuss what it would mean to first bid 4♦ and then convert partner's 4♥ to 4♠. Assuming he bids 4♥.

[Fluffy]

phoenix214, on 2014-February-23, 10:30, said:

Best way to show strong hand

When you have a strong freak like that you are not going to do very well showing, and you should rather focus on asking. Don't think you will ever reach a point where partner can say: Hey, he must have that hand!

[Zelandakh]

phoenix214, on 2014-February-23, 17:58, said:

Well yeah, i got that 4S is an underbid, but what is the difference between, Direct 4spades over 3diamonds, and double then 4 spades. I guess in these kind of situations i have ~ different bids.

In general, after a preempt the difference between double then bid and bidding directly is that the former shows a more flexible hand type. For this reason I am not overly keen on the initial double - ♠AKQxxxx is good enough for me to call trumps in a cramped auction. Instead we should think about what sequences such as P - (3♦) - 5♦; 5♥ - 5/6♠ and P - (3♦) - 4♦; 4♥ - 5/6♠ might mean in comparison with an immediate 5/6♠ overcall.

[Hanoi5]

I think the double is fine since it will get us to hearts regularly. However, over 4♦ I'd cue-bid with 5♦, and bid 5NT over 5♥ or 5♠ and 6♠ over 6♣. I don't think you have to get to 7, but 6 looks very easy.

[granguru]

Agreements are a must over hi level preemetives.

A very good one is

(3♣) 4♣ = ♦+M Then 4♦asks M
and 4M is natural.
4♦= ♥+♠
(3♣) P (3NT) follows the same logic as before

(3♦) 4♣ =♣+M Then 4♦ asks M
and 4M is natural.
(3♦) P (3NT) follows the same logic as before

(3♥) X P 3NT 1-suited slammish or ♦ ♣
Then doubler chooses his/her best minor
(3♠) X P 4♠ Then 1-suited slammish or 4NT=2-suited

I do not put the defense over (3NT) as it is too large to include it here...but it is a kind of complex RIPSTRA and italian GHESTEM.

So, if you have SOME agreement alike, 4♦ would show a maximum of 3 losers and a 2 or 3 suiter hand, not a major minor hand.

Then
(3♦) 4[♠] shows a 4 or 5 losers hand
(3♦) X and then 4♠ shows a GOSH hand
(3♦) 4♦ shows a 3 or less losers hand
(3♦) X then 4♦ shows a slammish hand
(3♦) X (3NT) P 4♦ same as above
(3♦) X 4(♦) P P X shows a 2-suiter
slammish
(3♦) X 4(♦) 5♦ shows a 1-2 loser hand

So here I would bid 4♦ then over 4♥ would look for 6/7 ♥. Over 5♣ I would bid 5♦ or 5 ♠, depending on the losers count. I would fall off chair if p bids ♠.

Probably many will find a different approach to this situation. The real main point is the fact that you need consistent prearranged agreements with your partner to deal with this kind of situations at the 4 and upper levels.

[Zelandakh]

granguru, on 2014-February-24, 19:25, said:

So here I would bid 4♦ then over 4♥ would look for 6/7 ♥.

Sounds like a good way to play in a 4-3 fit instead of a 7-2 one. You did not provide agreements for any of the sequences I gave. Your NLM arrangement over the 3♦ opening is increasingly popular and I would even go so far as to call it standard these days.

[whereagles]

There's no way to bid this properly, so just bid what you think you can make: 6♠

[78180]

4♦ better than dbl