[whereagles]

"hrothgar" said:

I was hoping to avoid this whole discussion, however, since you insist:

Hum... why did you want to avoid discussion?

"hrothgar" said:

In contrast, your constructive openings show 12 - 19 HCP.  You have added in a range of very strong, comparatively rare hand types.  In doing so, you are severely degrading the utility of the limited opening.

I'm not playing limited openings. I'm just puting the usual 2/1 2C opener into the 1C opener, that's all. I thought this was clear

"hrothgar" said:

(A) You are going to encounter enormous problems during constructive auctions: Example: You hold

♠ 7
♥ AK53
♦ Q32
♣ AK542

The auction starts 1♣ - 1♠. What is your rebid?

Hum.. I don't see any difference in comparision with sayc or 2/1, so what's the problem?

"hrothgar" said:

If you chose 2♥, please explain how you plan to show "strong" hands with primary Hearts...

Bid 2D and if pard bids 2H, rebid 3D transfer to hearts. Remember I'll have 20+ in that case, so I'm in a different situation than polish club.

"hrothgar" said:

If you want to use the 2♦ relay, you might want to consider that the Poles believe that the relay needs to promise at least 3+ cards in Opener's suit to be able to hand intervention...

The 2D relay won't be promising that, but in compensation opener's hand will be stronger.

"hrothgar" said:

You hold

♠ Q542
♥ 6
♦ K3
♣ AK9542

You open 1♣ and partner responds 1♦. Whats your rebid?

Simple: 1S, showing a 5C-4S with strenght up to a minimum reverse.

"hrothgar" said:

David_C has raised another point worth noting:

1♣ - 1♦
2NT

1C = Maminsky Club
1D = I'm broke - You have no transport to my hand
2NT = I have 18-20 balanced, please double me...

This is an important point, which there is a simple solution to. In the first place, I don't think they can double me that easily, as the 1D response is unlimited. Second, original precision had a 1C-1D-2NT rebid of 19-21 and did fine with it. I'm just stealing a point to it...

But I agree this can be improved, and it can be done in the following way:

1C 1D
1NT = 12-14 OR 18-19.

Now, if responder has 0-4 he will pass regardless. With more that that he'll have 5 diamonds and can use a keri-like relay 2C into 2D, intending to play there. Opener can escape into 2NT with 18-19. That should be safe since the line has 23-24 at least. Other rebids by responder will be

1C 1D
1NT ...?
2C = relay to 2D, opener bids 2NT with 18-19.
2D = hearts. Opener fills transfer and if resp passes it's 0-4 5 hearts. If opener bids on, it means 2D was made with 4 hearts only and so 1D walsh style with a 5-4. There is a game-force on now (else bid 1C 1H).
2H = spades. Same as above.
2S = asks range. Opener bids 2NT with 12, 3C with 13-14, 3D with 18-19.
2NT= transfer to clubs
3C+= whatever you prefer.

So.. problem fixed, though I might try the 18-20 2NT rebid for a while since it's simpler. If it proves unsound in practice, I apply the above solution.

[hrothgar]

>I'm not playing limited openings. I'm just puting the usual 2/1 2C opener
>into the 1C opener, that's all. I thought this was clear

What you are doing is quite clear.
You motivation to do so is far less obvious....

Polish and Precision style 1♣ openings a big losers at the table. They are a necessary cost that system builders accept in order to realize significant gains elsewhere in the system.

In most cases, these gains are related to supporting a structure of light/limited opening bids. In your case, you seem to be suggesting that are you are willing to

(A) play an EXTREMELY poorly defined 1♣ opening - far less defined than either a Polish style 1♣ or a standard 1♣
(B) Add enormous amounts of complexity to your system

all in order to free up your 2♣ opening for use as a weak 2...

Out of curiousity, I'd love to see any simulations that you've done comparing the relative frequence of your 1♣ opening compared to your 2♣ opening...

>Bid 2D and if pard bids 2H, rebid 3D transfer to hearts. Remember I'll
>have 20+ in that case, so I'm in a different situation than polish club.

I think that the 2♦ relay is severely overloaded. You're going to be forced to relay with almost any "strong" hand. In general, relay methods work best when thenbalanced hand asks and the unbalanced hand shows. As I noted earlier, you're going to take a major hit, either in efficiency or complexity...

>>♠ Q542
>>♥ 6
>>♦ K3
>>♣ AK9542
>>
>>You open 1♣ and partner responds 1♦
>>
>>Whats your rebid?
>
>Simple: 1S, showing a 5C-4S with strenght up to a minimum reverse.

So you rebid 1NT with any 12-14 HCP balanced hand, regardless of whether partner holds a 4 card major... This introduced its own set of problems:

1. Many people who play Polish Club believe that this type of NT rebid is very exposed to penalty doubles...
2. Your going to be missing a lot of major suit fits

I note that you are also considering a method in which the 1NT rebid shows either 12-14 balanced OR 18-19 balanced...

I'll note once gain that you are introducing enormous complexity while realizing very little gain.

[the hog]

"The purpose of this twinkering is simple, as I said:
- Allow for a weak 2C opener, a very common hand-type, especially if you open it on 5 cards as I do.
- Improve precision if opener is strong and resp has 5+. "

I don't see much pre emptive value in a 2C opening.

I think you actually lose precision if opener is strong and responder has a 5 card suit, particularly 5M. Odwrotka is a very valuable tool, just as often because of the inferences when it is not used as when it is used.

I agree with Richard that the overloading of the 1C opening has made it poorly defined and added a layer of unnecessary obfuscation to low level bidding.

[whereagles]

"hrothgar" said:

you seem to be suggesting that are you are willing to
(A) play an EXTREMELY poorly defined 1♣ opening - far less defined than either a Polish style 1♣ or a standard 1♣

I think you are overrating the poor definition of the maminsky 1C. The strong variant will show up 5% of the time, maybe less. (Don't have simulations, though. I'm a busy person.)

"hrothgar" said:

( Add enormous amounts of complexity to your system

Add some complexity yes, add enormous amounts of it, no way. By the way, I played relay systems so this is absolute peanuts to me.. lol

"hrothgar" said:

I think that the 2♦ relay is severely overloaded. You're going to be forced to relay with almost any "strong" hand.

Overloaded?? Not more than a sayc 2C opener, for I rebid 2D with the same hands I'd have opened 2C. And note that if pard has a positive response, I'll be starting the auction at a lower level. I consider this an improvement on a sayc 2C.

"hrothgar" said:

So you rebid 1NT with any 12-14 HCP balanced hand, regardless of whether partner holds a 4 card major... This introduced its own set of problems:

No.. if you can support pard's major you just do it. As for auctions like

1C 1H
1NT <--- 12-14 no 4 card heart, may have 4 card spade

I'll agree I might miss a 44 spade fit, but I've been playing like this for the last year (1C-1H-1S is a 5-4) and I never had problems. Besides, playing checkback or keri enables you to dig back the 44 spade fit if the hand is inv+.

"hrothgar" said:

1. Many people who play Polish Club believe that this type of NT rebid is very exposed to penalty doubles...

There we go again. While opposite polish club you can perhaps afford to pass 1C with a 16+ balanced hand and double later, opposite a maminsky club you probably can't, so the penalty of 1NT is unlikely to be executed (unless LHO decides to take some anti-percentage action).

"hrothgar" said:

I note that you are also considering a method in which the 1NT rebid shows either 12-14 balanced OR 18-19 balanced... I'll note once gain that you are introducing enormous complexity while realizing very little gain.

The increase in complexity is marginal, and the gains (weak 2C) are not to be dismissed so lightly. I've seen it happening over and over again that opps take an absolutely mandatory and sound action over a 5 card weak two only to find out their very sensible action was pure and simply wrong.

[Chamaco]

Whereagles,
if you want to play all 2-level bid "weakish" you may consider play "Fantunes" system, which opens naturally at the 1 level any 14+ hand, and is forcing, using a 2nd round relay to discriminate minimum openers, reverses and battleships.

Of course 2 level bid cannot be too weak, e.g. more or less 8-13 hcp.

1NT opener (even with 5cM) is 12-14, and all 15+ balanced openers will open 1C.

The system sacrifices wild weak 2s, but is solid and aggressive at the same time:

- natural 1-level bids with huge hands avoid the usual problem of artificial 1C and 2C openers; in fact, now opps will be wary to overcall preemptively a 1C opener which has a high % of being balanced and to penalize;

- "weak 2s" are not-so-weak, and puts responder in a similar situations as when pard opens a weak NT: if opps gets frisky because they feel they are stolen, responder may double them safely, in the knowledge that opener will contribute something.

[whereagles]

Thanks for the suggestion. It's nice but I could never stand passing on KJTxx and out.. lol. Also, as a norm I don't play other people's systems. I make my own

[MickyB]

whereagles, on Jan 15 2005, 03:25 PM, said:

Thanks for the suggestion. It's nice but I could never stand passing on KJTxx and out..

What do you think the 3♠ opening bid is for?