# BBO Discussion Forums: 4th Color Forcing? - BBO Discussion Forums

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## 4th Color Forcing? Competitive Bidding Problems

### #1HeartA

• Posts: 2,016
• Joined: 2004-October-17

Posted 2013-July-01, 15:08

These two question are copied from BBO Chinese forum:
=========================================
Example #1:

1. Is it forcing if opener rebids 3?

Example #2:

1. Is it forcing if opener rebids 2?
4. and 4?

Senshu
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### #2wank

• Posts: 2,866
• Joined: 2008-July-13

Posted 2013-July-01, 15:20

these questions have nothing to do with 4th suit [colour] forcing. 4th suit forcing is when your side has bid the other 3 suits naturally, then bids the 4th suit.

on hand 1 3c is normally played as not forcing. though it would be perfectly reasonable to play it as forcing. if you don't play support doubles, you can differentiate between the 2 types of 2c bid by doubling then bidding clubs later as opposed to bidding them directly. if so, it's normal to play doubling first as forcing and bidding them direct as non-forcing. if 3c is non-forcing for you, 4c is natural and forcing.

on hand 2, 2h is forcing as it's a reverse (i.e. respnder must goto the 3 level to give preference to your first suit). as 2H is forcing, it can be used for all the natural heart hands. 3H can therefore be saved for something different. a common choice would be a splinter in support of spades (with short hearts). whatever else you play, 4d is a splinter in support of spades (with short diamonds). as for 4H, following the same logic as before, it shouldn't show hearts. a popular choice would be exclusion keycard blackwood for spades (heart void).
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### #3HeartA

• Posts: 2,016
• Joined: 2004-October-17

Posted 2013-July-01, 15:51

wank, on 2013-July-01, 15:20, said:

these questions have nothing to do with 4th suit [colour] forcing. 4th suit forcing is when your side has bid the other 3 suits naturally, then bids the 4th suit.

on hand 1 3c is normally played as not forcing. though it would be perfectly reasonable to play it as forcing. if you don't play support doubles, you can differentiate between the 2 types of 2c bid by doubling then bidding clubs later as opposed to bidding them directly. if so, it's normal to play doubling first as forcing and bidding them direct as non-forcing. if 3c is non-forcing for you, 4c is natural and forcing.

on hand 2, 2h is forcing as it's a reverse (i.e. respnder must goto the 3 level to give preference to your first suit). as 2H is forcing, it can be used for all the natural heart hands. 3H can therefore be saved for something different. a common choice would be a splinter in support of spades (with short hearts). whatever else you play, 4d is a splinter in support of spades (with short diamonds). as for 4H, following the same logic as before, it shouldn't show hearts. a popular choice would be exclusion keycard blackwood for spades (heart void).

I know, I know, "4th color forcing" here is different from "non-competitive 4th color forcing (to game)".

Well, if 2 in question #2 is forcing because "responder must go to the 3 level to give preference to your first suit", the same is for question #1. The difference is, in board #1, opps bid and support the a suit (opps have a fit), while in #2, not clear if opps have a fit.
Senshu
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### #4lowerline

• Group: Full Members
• Posts: 553
• Joined: 2004-March-29
• Gender:Male
• Location:Belgium

Posted 2013-July-02, 02:25

1.1 No
1.2 Yes
2.1 Reverse
2.2 Splinter
2.3 Splinter
2.4 EKCB

Steven
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### #5Zelandakh

• Posts: 10,663
• Joined: 2006-May-18
• Gender:Not Telling

Posted 2013-July-02, 02:37

1.1: This depends on agreements, in particular how you play X and 2NT here. I think the simplest way for beginners to play is for 3 to be strong and for weaker hands with clubs to go via double (competitive double); but standard is the reverse of this.
1.2: Forcing
2: All forcing
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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### #6P_Marlowe

• Posts: 9,598
• Joined: 2005-March-18
• Gender:Male

Posted 2013-July-02, 07:23

#1 default would be yes, on the ground that a new suit on the 3 level is forcing to game
if you happen to play good / bad 2NT, 3C may become nonforcing.
4C should be showing support for partners spade, but this is unclear.

#2 undiscussed 2H would still be a reverse, showing add. strength, should be forcing for
one round, higher bids should show support for partner

if opponents bid, I ususually dont play splinter, in other suits, but having a suit of my own,
having support for partners suit, a jump in the 4th suit may be only sensible played as splinter.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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### #7gnasher

• Andy Bowles
• Posts: 11,993
• Joined: 2007-May-03
• Gender:Male
• Location:London, UK

Posted 2013-July-02, 10:01

1. Is it forcing if opener rebids 3?
No, just competitive with a 5-5. Don't listen to anyone who suggests Good-Bad 2NT here - play transfers instead.

Forcing, because 3 isn't

1. Is it forcing if opener rebids 2?
No, just competitive with a reasonable 4-5 or 4-6. You can't afford to have the hearts shut out by a diamond raise.

Forcing, because 2 isn't

Either a splinter or a high-card raise to 4, whichever you consider more useful. Often these two will overlap, of course.

4. and 4?
A splinter, for want of a better meaning.

... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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