[bd71]

---

Matchpoints.

Your agreements allow 5-card 2-level pre-empts but (1) it would involve additional distribution (54 at worst) and at this vul it's unlikely, and (2) that flexibility is more to accommodate you as your partner rarely stretches pre-empts beyond traditional standards.

What's your bid and approach? Please choose from options above in poll. Am open to system/gadget suggestions, but would ask folks at least comment on their preferred approach within these agreements.

How would IMPs/teams format change your approach?

[billw55]

Just direct 4♥ for me. There are so many ways to have two pointed suit losers.

[ArtK78]

I would start with 2NT assuming it is some sort of asking bid. Depending on the response, I will continue forward trying to get information.

Just signing off at 4♥ is kind of silly. You could be missing a grand opposite a perfect opening, and a small against many others. For example:

x AQxxxx Kx xxxx

is an easy grand, and is certainly within partner's range of possible hands. The small would be cold if you changed either the ♥A or the ♦K into a small card, or if you reversed the pointed suit holdings.

I don't believe there are any matchpoint vs. IMPs considerations on this hand. It is just a matter of finding out what partner has and placing the contract.

[mikeh]

If I were going slam hunting, I'd try 2♠ just to cater to the 3=6=1=3 hands wherein he can splinter in diamonds, I can check for keycards, and if he shows 2 assume he is at worst Kxx Axxxxx x xxx and bid the excellent slam.

However, I will pay to this, especially at mps. I just bid 4♥.

For every hand on which slam is good (and plausibly reachable) there is likely to be one or more hands on which the 5 level is in jeopardy. That wouldn't bother me a lot if slam were more than a faint hope, but, as it is, I fear that bidding at the 2-level will make it too easy for LHO, who is likely to be looking at a good(ish) hand, to come in. They might now find a 5-level save (that could be cold), and I'd have to bid 5♥, risking a minus score at mps. That would be a poor score on a board where we were initially wondering if we could intelligently bid a slam.

4♥ doesn't bar LHO but it does make it more difficult for him to bid. In addition, all kinds of good things can happen over 4♥ that wouldn't likely happen if we went slow. Say LHO doubles.

On some hands, RHO may pass, tho it's unlikely that he'd do so on layouts consistent with a double by LHO. Of course, if he does, we are content (don't redouble, they'll run!)

Or RHO might pull to clubs or notrump and then we might get doubled at the 5-level, probably another good result. While I can see 5 failing, it has to be odds on.

None of these results are as likely when we go slow.

[mikeh]

ArtK78, on 2013-June-26, 08:33, said:

I would start with 2NT assuming it is some sort of asking bid. Depending on the response, I will continue forward trying to get information.

Just signing off at 4♥ is kind of silly. You could be missing a grand opposite a perfect opening, and a small against many others. For example:

x AQxxxx Kx xxxx

is an easy grand, and is certainly within partner's range of possible hands. The small would be cold if you changed either the ♥A or the ♦K into a small card, or if you reversed the pointed suit holdings.

I don't believe there are any matchpoint vs. IMPs considerations on this hand. It is just a matter of finding out what partner has and placing the contract.

I agree with you in terms of we could take a lot of tricks. What I don't understand is how you intend on finding out.

2N was specified as Ogust. Your example of x AQxxxx Kx xxxx seems as carefully chosen as mine of Kxx Axxxxx x xxx

Say he decides to bid 3♠, good hand, good suit. Now what?

Why isn't he x AQxxxx xxx Kxx?

How do you tell?

That's my main reason for not exploring: I can't think of any way to do so, with the exception of bidding spades and hoping for a splinter. Nothing else seems to me to work.

I may be missing something: I'd be interested in seeing how you (or anyone else) would solve the problem within the constraints of relatively mainstream bridge.

[wyman]

My usual "should I explore" is based on the "would it be (basically) cold if partner had a perfect min?" standard. As Art points out, x / QJxxxx / Kx / xxxx is such a perfect min (1-1 hearts or 4-3 spades)

The only caveat to that is: is there a way to get the info I want. Ick. I'm not sure. I guess one could bid Ogust, and if he shows something you like, explore over that -- but how? After an Ogust response, do you play 4C is wood? Does that help even? Is it a heart cue? Is it natural? Is 5C natural? Is it voidwood?

If you have really sound Ogust follow-ups (and they match this hand) then that's the route I'd take -- I'm bullish here. But honestly, I don't, and I'll just bid 4H ATT here unless I need a flier, in which case I'd just bid 2N and bid 4H over everything but 6H over max/max.

edit: apparently my pony is 4 minutes slower than mikeh's...

[Cyberyeti]

I don't know whether jumps are fits, splinters or big single suited, but one of 3♠/4♣ would seem appropriate if either of the first 2.

And J, Axxxxx, xx, xxxx is even better and more minimum as a perfect minimum.

[ggwhiz]

We switched to combined shape/strength responses to 2nt where

3♣ = dreck
3♦ = med. with undisclosed shortage
3♥ = med. no shortage
3♠ = max. undisclosed shortage
3nt = max. no shortage

You are going nowhere unless pard has a stiff on these cards but a 3♠ response to 2nt could do the trick. 3nt asks for the stiff (we didn't go this route to play here) and if pard shows a stiff spade (by bidding 4♥) I'm shooting slam.

[Cyberyeti]

ggwhiz, on 2013-June-26, 13:21, said:

We switched to combined shape/strength responses to 2nt where

3♣ = dreck
3♦ = med. with undisclosed shortage
3♥ = med. no shortage
3♠ = max. undisclosed shortage
3nt = max. no shortage

You are going nowhere unless pard has a stiff on these cards but a 3♠ response to 2nt could do the trick. 3nt asks for the stiff (we didn't go this route to play here) and if pard shows a stiff spade (by bidding 4♥) I'm shooting slam.

Partner doesn't need a stiff, he just needs the right king, xx, AJ10xxx, Kx, xxx is fine as is the same with the side K in spades.

[wank]

i'll bid 4c to give them a chance to smack it for the lead and then bid 6h assuming partner's got a banger.

i expect this to be pretty cold on a non-diamond lead.

[sfi]

Does anyone play 5H in this auction as slam invite? Every time I have seen it come up it's just to play with lots of hearts.

[ArtK78]

sfi, on 2013-June-27, 00:41, said:

Does anyone play 5H in this auction as slam invite? Every time I have seen it come up it's just to play with lots of hearts.

5♥ on this auction is preemptive (at least it is for me). One doesn't see this very often when vulnerable.

[wyman]

wyman, on 2013-June-26, 08:56, said:

If you have really sound Ogust follow-ups (and they match this hand) then that's the route I'd take -- I'm bullish here. But honestly, I don't

Inspired by this thread, a current partner and I have agreed, at least for now, to play that after Ogust, the only two possible strains for our side are NT and the preempt suit; if you want to introduce something else, you can't start with 2N. Then, after Ogust,


4C = modified RKC, as over the preempt
new suits are cues
new suits above game are ERKC
4N is a general quant try
5N is pick-a-slam (NT or preempt suit)

In light of this, 2M-5m is to play.

[ggwhiz]

ggwhiz, on 2013-June-26, 13:21, said:

We switched to combined shape/strength responses to 2nt where

3♣ = dreck
3♦ = med. with undisclosed shortage
3♥ = med. no shortage
3♠ = max. undisclosed shortage
3nt = max. no shortage

You are going nowhere unless pard has a stiff on these cards but a 3♠ response to 2nt could do the trick. 3nt asks for the stiff (we didn't go this route to play here) and if pard shows a stiff spade (by bidding 4♥) I'm shooting slam.

Cyberyeti, on 2013-June-26, 15:11, said:

Partner doesn't need a stiff, he just needs the right king, xx, AJ10xxx, Kx, xxx is fine as is the same with the side K in spades.

Very true, my bad. After a 3♥ or 3nt response we can cue below game to get to those ones.

[nige1]

bd71, on 2013-June-26, 08:02, said:

Matchpoints.
Your agreements allow 5-card 2-level pre-empts but (1) it would involve additional distribution (54 at worst) and at this vul it's unlikely, and (2) that flexibility is more to accommodate you as your partner rarely stretches pre-empts beyond traditional standards.
What's your bid and approach? Please choose from options above in poll. Am open to system/gadget suggestions, but would ask folks at least comment on their preferred approach within these agreements.
How would IMPs/teams format change your approach?

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IMO 4♥ = 10, 5♣ = 9 (You need the practice in 0-2 fits), 2♠ = 8, 6♥ = 7, 2N = 6, 4♣ = 5.

[gszes]

There are so many holding p can have where 6 is ice cold
it is scary. Singing off in 4h seems like far too ostrich like
for me even at MP. We are suddenly afraid big bad lho is
going to force us to the 5 level when a grand might still
be there?? Starting with

2s

gives us our best chance right from the start. If p can raise spades
we can key card (i am really not worried about heart suit quality
at these colors) and maybe detemine immediately if 7H is a good
idea or not KQx Axxxxx xx xx
2h
2s
3n spade fit max no short
4c short
4h cue little waste
5c exclusion
5n 2 with
7h

If p cannot raise spades we still have a superb chance at making
6 because of the gigantic heart fit--- xx Axxxxx Kxx xx
2h
2s
2n no spade fit and min
3c (forcing to game) asking for stopper for nt
<3h=none 3n = clubs else natural>
3d
3h setting trump (looking for slam
4h nothing else to say (it would have been ok to bid 4s with
shortness since we are limited to 2 spades already which
would mean 7h is back in the picture)
5c exclusion
5h 0314 showing 1
6h.

Yes one of the opps could make a preempt which would mess up
our delicate bidding but we will rarely be worse off than we would
have been if we bid an immediate 4h and we have a shot at going 7.


P heart suit should never be as bad as Axxxxx at these colors though
they might have 7 to the A. If you do not have good bidding tools over
weak 2 bids then I can see wanting to just bid 4h since exploration is
difficult at best.

[Winstonm]

I think the best spade holding for partner for slam is singleton or void, but I don't know how to find that specific information. I don't think the spade suit is robust enough to have slam inspirations unless partner hold two spade honors, which is quite unlikely on the auction. But if I can ruff 4 spades and reverse dummy, I may have a play.

There is no reason partner shouldn't be holding something like xx, AQJxxx, xxx, Kx or similar.