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Why o/even discards ?

#1 User is offline   Wiste1 

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Posted 2003-June-18, 08:47

Hi everyone

I prefer play UDCA like more and more people do. At some profiles i see udca + odd/even.
Playing udca i try to give attitude at the first free discard, low is encour and high is discouraging (playing standard high is encour).

So why mess up with o/e ???
Wiste
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Posted 2003-June-18, 09:46

Quote

Hi everyone

I prefer play UDCA like more and more people do. At some profiles i see udca + odd/even.
Playing udca i try to give attitude at the first free discard, low is encour and high is discouraging (playing standard high is encour).

So why mess up with o/e ???


I think the answer has to do with hands where the only suit in which you CANNOT AFFORD to discard an encouraging card in the suit you want partner to lead. Perhpas they are playing notrump and if you discard in the suit you want, you are throwing away the setting trick. You can discard a discouraging (high) card in another suit, but that still leaves partner with a choice of two suits to lead... usually that is enough and partner can work out what suit to lead... but sometimes it simply is not clear. So the Odd/Even guys use a simple signal...

Odd --- partner lead this suit
Even --- partner don't lead this suit... it the even card is hi- lead a higher suit, if the even card is low, lead a lower suit.....

I don't play this, because when I do, and I have to discard a heart and want partner to lead a spade, the only stupid even heart I ever hold is the TWO which, of course, ask for a lower suit... :)
--Ben--

#3 User is offline   lenze 

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Posted 2003-June-18, 10:19

Ben wrote:
I don't play this, because when I do, and I have to discard a heart and want partner to lead a spade, the only stupid even heart I ever hold is the TWO which, of course, ask for a lower suit...

That's one of the reasons I have become a fan of CRACK discards.
High card = Other color
Low Card= Same color

You are seldom stuck for a proper discard

Just my thoughts, I could be wrong
Please do not complain about my opinion. I don't have the time to convince you I'm right.
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#4 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2003-June-18, 15:12

Peter Gill and Ron Klinger are popularising odd-even discards (starting in Sydney and working out from there) and their assertion is that they are the easiest to remember and play.

Peter Gill wrote on rec.games.bridge:

Quote

Bridge is a practical game, not a theoretical one. Two people sit down opposite each h her and try to figure out what the heck the person opposite is doing. Today I had DKQ65 and HAK64 to discard from. I wanted a diamond but (playing standard signals) D6 was unclear to partner and he had to tank for ages, expending lots of mindpower - remember that bridge is a test of
stamina.


This argument has a lot of merit to me.

Paul
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I don't work for BBO and any advice is based on my BBO experience over the decades
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#5 User is offline   Codo 

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Posted 2003-June-18, 16:08

I am playing udca since I learned the basics in bridge. IT is as good and as easy.
The next day, you look at KQ62 and AK84.
Now you make it difficult for pd to read your diamond signal with o/E and easy for the udca players.
For discards, I prefer italian discards, because you normally should find at least one fitting card in three suits, but this is another story.

Kind Regards

Roland
Kind Regards

Roland


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More system is not the answer...
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Posted 2003-June-19, 08:56

Hi...

Italian (odd/even or Roman) discards, Standard Attitude discards, Upside down attitude discards, Lavinthal (aks Mckenny) discards, reverse lavinthal discards, revolving discards, count discards, DOdds discards (sort of reverse italian, odd discourage---even encourages), are all playable. As noted in this thread, there are problems that can occur with each.

One simple example is what if you have no preference for anything? There is simply no nuetral card. Playing lavinthal, the suit you discard is "forbidden", and the size of the card convey's attitude for other suits. Playing odd/even, you have to discard either an odd (encouraging) or even (discouraging with suit preference). One must bear this in mind as partner of a player who discards.

There is another type of discarding that I haven't seen discussed here, parity discards... where a discard of high card shows even parity (a hand with three even suits, 4441, 5440, 6223, etc) and discard of a low card shows three odd suits (5521, 4333, 5431, etc). Or you can play reverse parity discards.

While parity signals are worth considering, because if you know your partner's parity, you usually know the entire hand pattern instantly. But, I believe it is more important to use attitude signals on first discard. Generally, I have been giving count (remaining count) with my second discards, but that tells partner about one suit, not all four. So perhaps I adopting the second discard as a parity discard would be a good idea.

First question... are parity discards considered encrypted and thus illegal in normal play? Second, should parity carding be considered when following to a suit... (example the Vinje trump signal)?

Anyone have experience with parity signals other than Vinje trump signal?
--Ben--

#7 User is offline   luis 

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Posted 2003-June-19, 09:12

Quote

First question... are parity discards considered encrypted and thus illegal in normal play? Second, should parity carding be considered when following to a suit... (example the Vinje trump signal)?
Anyone have experience with parity signals other than Vinje trump signal?


1) I don't think parity signals can be considered encrypted because the information transmitted is not based in something about your pd's hand that declarer doesn't know. I think it's just a normal signal like any other.

2) I don't understand the question once you have transmitted the parity of the hand you only need to tell pd which is your "odd" suit, the one with different parity than the others and then using dummy and those two signals the whole distribution of the hand can be obtained (Prism signals) Maybe you can clarify to me what you meant by "parity when following suit"

3) I've played prism signals it was a nice way to get the whole distribution of the hand, and after that we just signaled suit preference when declarer was leadingor attitude if pd was leading.
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Posted 2003-June-19, 09:22

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2) I don't understand the question once you have transmitted the parity of the hand you only need to tell pd which is your "odd" suit, the one with different parity than the others and then using dummy and those two signals the whole distribution of the hand can be obtained (Prism signals) Maybe you can clarify to me what you meant by "parity when following suit"


I meant, why wait until you make a discard to give a parity signal (first or second discard)?. Say declarer leads a club at trick two and you can play the club 2 or club 8. Normally, you might use the choice of 2 or 8 as count.... (either UDCA, or standard). But might a better use here be as a parity signal, giving count with the next spot card in the next suit played.

I read the prism signal document many years ago, haven't played it. I did used Vinje trump signal for a while, and found it very useful. So I was just wondering if first "real count" signal might be better played as a parity signal, followed by count after that.

Ben
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#9 User is offline   luis 

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Posted 2003-June-19, 10:14

IMO if you play parity signals you should use the prism, you just need to signal two things and the whole distribution of the hand is know.
Yes, I know, you have to learn how to use the prism and that's hard....
I wonder if there're top pairs playing prism signals either in the trump suit or in other ways maybe we should investigate records of hands played and check signals :-) CSI work.
I've thought some time ago about this variation: On the 1st suit played by declarer play hi-lo with even parity or lo-hi with odd parity, no matter if the suit is trumps or another suit. Then in the other suits play low if the suit is NOT your odd suit (the suit with different parity) or high if the suit is your odd suit. Once the parity and odd suit are known you can play suit preference and attitude since the count of the hand should be known.
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#10 User is offline   mishovnbg 

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Posted 2003-June-19, 12:43

Direct natural standard or reversed discards are more flexible and you can make psychic discards. Playing conventions, like in bidding, can help you of course, but you must be ready to pay the cost, when you have unsuitable hand for used convention.
What to marking is more important than how to marking. My opinion will may be strange for most of players, but i think that you must change way of marking, depend of opponent way of marking 8). For example against experts(real advanced) better to not marking count at all ( it rare will help you and more often to him :P), because his play normally is based over counting of deal. Against average players better to mark count, because he normally based his play on honor placement :).
Misho
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#11 User is offline   DrTodd13 

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Posted 2003-July-03, 16:38

I play revolving discards. More options to signal. Less chance of
not having an appropriate card. Can also signal apathy in some
cases.
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#12 User is offline   bearmum 

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Posted 2003-July-06, 05:39

I too use revolving discards :) (have done for about 25 years) and fing they work well. Since playing a lot online I can also use Lavinthal discards (ALMOST the same) so can't see the reason to attempt to confuse myself with yet another system ::)
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