[cloa513]

benlessard, on 2013-June-26, 17:05, said:

On BW forum most said that 4H as any S try is standard but they dont like it and some play like Han (4c is art show fit) North hand was

Axxx
x
AKQxxx
xx

where 7D/7nt are cold while even 6S could go down. Luckyly for us the other table also stopped in 6D.

He should have bid 6D instead of 4D which should mean lots of excellent diamonds (6 or more) and 4 good but not great spades- pick a slam.

[aguahombre]

So, we went thru a lot on a hand where we have seven sure tricks opposite a 2NT opening and can pretty much assume 7NT is cold after finding out about the controls.

[mikeh]

I don't understand stayman on Axxx x AKQxxx xx

We can count 33-34 hcp and more to the point we can count 7 tricks in our hand.

I would gerber (yes, I know we all mock gerber bidders, but this is exactly where gerber is useful absent relay methods, which I have only played over 2N in one partnership.

If we find out we're off an Ace, I bid 6♦.

If as here I find out we have the Aces, I ask for Kings. I find out she has 3.

Ok, I have 7 tricks, partner has shown 5 guaranteed and she has at least 3 more hcp, and possibly 4. If she has ANY Queen, we have 13 winners.

If she has 3 jacks, then we have very good odds, even if one of them is in diamonds. I'd now bid 7N, to ensure the lead comes around to partner. Opening leader is very likely to lead into one of my partner's tenaces, and if not we have some squeeze possibilities and finally we'll have at least one finesse option. Add to this the reality that I will have given the opps NO shape info re my hand for the lead nor, more importantly, declarer's hand for the discarding on diamonds, and I'd guessestimate that (provided diamonds run) grand is 90% or so.

Meanwhile, grand in a 4-4 spade fit is seldom going to be better. Play around with 20 counts for opener with spades and you won't find a lot of hands where playing in spades is better than notrump, and the opposite is true as soon as you remove the spade Q from partner, let alone the spade QJ. Yes, I know my plan requires diamonds to run, and maybe partner is 4-2 (as he was) without the diamond J. But most of the time he has 3+ and/or the J and most of the rest of the time diamonds run. Meanwhile, on some of the hands where they don't, the hand short in diamonds has 4 trump, negating our ability to ruff the suit good anyway.

I had thought about playing 7♦ since against double dummy defence diamonds is more likely to make due to the additional declarer play options available in a trump contract (ruffing to isolate squeeze menaces, various trump squeezes, etc) but think that the chances that 7N is flat out cold + the chances of a lead into a tenace on a blind auction make notrump best.

[aguahombre]

Do I get extra credit for consuming twenty fewer lines of text?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

aguahombre, on 2013-June-26, 19:12, said:

Do I get extra credit for consuming twenty fewer lines of text?

Yesss ....[ forget about ♠ ] .
And if you have the method for Responder to show long ♦, slammish, then if Opener does the "asking", s/he can count 13 tricks at NT after finding the remaining key cards and the ♦Q .

[aguahombre]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-June-26, 20:18, said:

Yesss ....[ forget about ♠ ] .
And if you have the method for Responder to show long ♦, slammish, then if Opener does the "asking", s/he can count 13 tricks at NT after finding the remaining key cards and the ♦Q .

Why would Responder want to show anything? Responder has the diamond queen and the tricks.

[Zelandakh]

aguahombre, on 2013-June-26, 21:23, said:

Why would Responder want to show anything? Responder has the diamond queen and the tricks.

Because not everyone has Gerber in their response structure and if you do not have it then setting diamonds and key carding is a reasonable alternative.

[aguahombre]

Zelandakh, on 2013-June-27, 01:01, said:

Because not everyone has Gerber in their response structure and if you do not have it then setting diamonds and key carding is a reasonable alternative.

Wow. I guess South African Texas or Super Puppet have quite a following.

Anyway, I hope Ben had fun stringing us out on the Stayman thing with the same hand, same questions, and similar answers on both this site and on Bridgewinners. He hasn't yet let the BW people know the actual responding hand.

[Zelandakh]

You do not think there are other options? My 2NT - 4♣ shows diamonds, thereby allowing 2NT - 3♠ to show clubs. 4 suit transfers if you will. This is hardly illogical. Having played both Gerber and 4♣ majors in the past, I think the simple transfer offers more then either. Obviously, as here, you do have to start a little higher on a real Gerber hand.

[cherdano]

I could not have imagined that any serious partnership has Gerber available over 2NT - 4♣ is way too useful of a bid to waste it like that.

[mikeh]

cherdano, on 2013-June-27, 05:08, said:

I could not have imagined that any serious partnership has Gerber available over 2NT - 4♣ is way too useful of a bid to waste it like that.

I guess none of my partnerships have been serious?

Just kidding: I don't use gerber in my serious partnerships because, as you say, 4♣ is too useful for other purposes as part of a complex response structure. Howevr, lest we forget the OP entirely, it is clear that they were not a partnership that had any real discussion at all. I am morally certain that if you bid 4♣ opposite any NA expert in a pickup partnership, partner would tell you how many Aces he had.

In a serious partnership, one would set diamonds and then keycard and bid 6♦ or 7N as per my massive post above.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

aguahombre, on 2013-June-26, 21:23, said:

Why would Responder want to show anything? Responder has the diamond queen and the tricks.

No speculation on this one if Responder sets ( long ) ♦ as trumps .
And if Responder does the "asking", then Opener has a " cold count " for 13 tricks when Responder next asks for Kings ( specific or otherwise; guaranteeing all key cards and the ♦Q ) and just bids 7NT : 2s, 2h, 6d, 3c

[benlessard]

We didnt have Gerber but even if we did I prefer 3C, there is many hands where opener is going to lack a king and 7S is still excellent, also opener can have 5S (not likely)

if opener got no majors nothing is lost because 4D after is natural and only promise a 3card major.
If opener got 4H and reply 3H nothing is lost because we have a way to show D natural with or without 4S you may choose to hide your 4S at this point if you want.

Its only when opener got exactly 4S that the bidding become messy. The way I have learned any other bid than 4S over opener 4H show real diamonds at this ponit.

[aguahombre]

benlessard, on 2013-June-27, 10:23, said:

We didnt have Gerber but even if we did I prefer 3C, there is many hands where opener is going to lack a king and 7S is still excellent, also opener can have 5S (not likely)

If we are lacking a king, and it is the spade King, no.
If we are lacking a king, but can get 4 tricks out of the spade suit, we can still count 13 for Notrump.

[benlessard]

Yep your right, its still possible that 7S is there but not 7D/7Nt but its not likely and rather than going into unclear sequence partner should show D and keycards,

I did ask some expereinced and good old timers and they almost all told me that 4m is a cue or a suits... I told them that the US standard is 4m is always a suit without a fit and they were as surprised as me. If somebody find an old example in acbl or BW it would be appreciated.

My friend Normand,

Quote

I play that 4m is natural and opener makes a step bid to show interest in that minor, upun which reponder can go back to 4♠ if it was a Qbid, mild slam try in spades. Of course opener can only bid 4♠ if not interested in the minor, and so may lose some other options. Usually, with a ‘known’ hand as a 2NT opening, it won't matter much, but please note that the more shape you allow, the more ‘stretches’, the more difficult it will be to follow up intelligently. 2NT, often, preempts your side.

This is slightly different to the way I play, as opener I would bypass 4S with a m fit and extras so when i bid 4H I have extras not fit, whn i bid 4S i have no extras no fit and when i correct 4nt to 5C/5D i have no extras but fit. I also need the control in clubs to bypass 4S if partner bid is 4D (in case hes slighlty slammsih without club controls)

[TWO4BRIDGE]

When OP said 6S doesn't make, obviously a bad trump split leading to unavoidable trump losers (probably the Q and J ) .

This points to a "safety bid " for Diam as trump when holding A K Q x x x and forgetting about the 4 card Major as stated by many here.

But, if the long minor is only say: A K x x x x, better to look for the Major fit first.