[kgr]

SA; not 2/1
1)
1♠-2♦
3♣-3♥
4♣-?
- What is 4♦ and 4♥ now?
- Is 4♦ a ♣-fit and ♦-control OR a strong hand with long ♦
- does 4♥ deny a ♦ control?

2)
1♥-(1♠)-2♦-(2♠)
3♥-(Pass)-3♠-(Pass)
4♦-(Pass)-4♥
- Is 4♥ ♦-fit and cue OR Good hand with 2c♥?
- If responder bids 4♣ iso 3♠: is that natural or cue for ♥?

[ahydra]

On 1) what is 4D over 3C? I'd have thought that was the long diamonds, so 4D in the given sequence should be a cuebid for clubs. Hence 4H denies a diamond control.
On 2) I would say 4H is natural. We are looking for a place to play having found we are lacking a spade stop for notrump. 4C instead of 3S would be cue for hearts for me.

ahydra

[kgr]

Thank you for the answer!! (A bit disappointed that I only got one reply, maybe the it is too obvious?).

ahydra, on 2013-June-22, 13:09, said:

On 1) what is 4D over 3C? I'd have thought that was the long diamonds, so 4D in the given sequence should be a cuebid for clubs. Hence 4H denies a diamond control.

We play:
1♠-3♦=6c♦,invite
And therefore repeating ♦ after a 2♦ 2/1 is GF.
So, I agree even more with you: 4♦ and 4♥ should be both cues for ♣.

ahydra, on 2013-June-22, 13:09, said:

On 2) I would say 4H is natural. We are looking for a place to play having found we are lacking a spade stop for notrump. 4C instead of 3S would be cue for hearts for me.

Seems reasonable.
These were both hands (from bidding practice of Larry Cohen that I email with my partner), and the bidding:

---

Note: 2♣ is transfer ♦: weak or strong (3♦ would be invite with 6c♦)
We missed a good 6♦ contract. I was East and thought that 4♥ was a suggestion to play, partner thought it was control for ♦.
We also play that 4♣ after the 3♥ bid is a cue for ♥, which make the West hand more difficult to bid.

[P_Marlowe]

#1 A hand with long diamonds, bids 3D over 3C, 3C sets up a GF
A hand with a good fit for clubs bids 4C instead of 3H.
Having said that - 4D is certainly showing SI, most likely for
clubs, the 5th club was not know upto now.
Given that responder did previously bid 2D, 4D showes a control.
#2 4H is a offer to play 4H, 4D denies a spade stopper and said,
I have secondary diamond support
4C instead of 4D cannot be natural, opener did not bid 3C over
2S, he denied a 4 card club suit.
4C showes values.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[kgr]

#1 not quouted, all understood & agreed

P_Marlowe, on 2013-June-23, 13:46, said:

#2 4H is a offer to play 4H, 4D denies a spade stopper and said,
I have secondary diamond support
4C instead of 4D cannot be natural, opener did not bid 3C over
2S, he denied a 4 card club suit.
4C shows values.

What do you mean with "4C shows values"? Isn't that natural then?

In my post, I meant 4C by responder after openers 3H: that is a control for H?

How should the bidding for the 2 hands go?

Thanks,
Koen

[P_Marlowe]

kgr, on 2013-June-23, 15:50, said:

#1 not quouted, all understood & agreed

What do you mean with "4C shows values"? Isn't that natural then?

In my post, I meant 4C by responder after openers 3H: that is a control for H?

How should the bidding for the 2 hands go?

Thanks,
Koen

if showing values = natural holds, no idea, but for me showing values is control
showing with values.

How the bidding should go? No idea, but for starters, i would bid 3D instead of
3H, we discovered a fit.
When partner is weak, do I really want to play 3H in a 6-1, when I may have a 53 fit
in diamonds? If partner is strong with diamonds, than he will also be happy to hear
about the fit, and I will be happy to hear he is strong with my add. values.

1H - (1S) - 2C - (2S)
3D - (Pass) - 3H - ...
3S -

3H - showes SI and a top honor, opener knowes, this to be king
3S - showes a control, having 16+, facing a GF responder, having a fit, I will investigate
the diamond slam, after some add. rounds I may end up in 5 or 6D.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[helene_t]

In the first auction I wonder if 4♥ could be 5♥6♦. Otherwise I agree with ahydra.

[Zelandakh]

I think it is completely obvious on Hand 2 that 4♥ is natural. Noone has shown slam interest as yet and we are still looking round for the best strain.

Hand 1 is more interesting. The critical question seems to be what we would rebid with a hand with no slam interest, no black suit fit and no heart stopper. Presumably we do have long diamonds on this hand so both 3♦ and 3♥ are possible. If we bid 3♦ then there is no hand we can hold that would want to bid a natural 4♦ over 4♣. However, if we want to hide the diamonds on that hand to try and give away less information on the way to 3NT, then this hand might want to bid 4♦ naturally over 4♣ as a choice of game.

Another aspect to Hand 1 is whether showing diamonds over the spade overcall is correct given the OP system. If double shows both minors then that is an alternative. Of course, given that transfers are in play it is quite possible that double would show clubs. On the actual hand, showing diamonds and hiding clubs should have worked out well - after 4♠ (instead of 4♥) the slam should be reached comfortably. Presumably a 2NT rebid by Opener would have been natural or you would have told us.

[kgr]

P_Marlowe, on 2013-June-24, 01:56, said:

if showing values = natural holds, no idea, but for me showing values is control
showing with values.

Ok, thanks

P_Marlowe, on 2013-June-24, 01:56, said:

How the bidding should go? No idea, but for starters, i would bid 3D instead of
3H, we discovered a fit.
When partner is weak, do I really want to play 3H in a 6-1, when I may have a 53 fit
in diamonds? If partner is strong with diamonds, than he will also be happy to hear
about the fit, and I will be happy to hear he is strong with my add. values.

1H - (1S) - 2C - (2S)
3D - (Pass) - 3H - ...
3S -

3H - showes SI and a top honor, opener knowes, this to be king
3S - showes a control, having 16+, facing a GF responder, having a fit, I will investigate
the diamond slam, after some add. rounds I may end up in 5 or 6D.

With kind regards
Marlowe

Yes, easier if I start with 3D. I actually hesitated between 3H and 3D, but opted for 3H.

[kgr]

Zelandakh, on 2013-June-24, 05:18, said:

Hand 1 is more interesting. The critical question seems to be what we would rebid with a hand with no slam interest, no black suit fit and no heart stopper. Presumably we do have long diamonds on this hand so both 3♦ and 3♥ are possible. If we bid 3♦ then there is no hand we can hold that would want to bid a natural 4♦ over 4♣. However, if we want to hide the diamonds on that hand to try and give away less information on the way to 3NT, then this hand might want to bid 4♦ naturally over 4♣ as a choice of game.

That is possible, but I think we should ignore that possibility and take 4D as a cue bid?

Zelandakh, on 2013-June-24, 05:18, said:

Another aspect to Hand 1 is whether showing diamonds over the spade overcall is correct given the OP system. If double shows both minors then that is an alternative. Of course, given that transfers are in play it is quite possible that double would show clubs. On the actual hand, showing diamonds and hiding clubs should have worked out well - after 4♠ (instead of 4♥) the slam should be reached comfortably. Presumably a 2NT rebid by Opener would have been natural or you would have told us.

I think you did mean hand 2?
- DBL is both minors, looks the best start.
- My partner agreed that he better bids 4S iso 4H
- We have the agreement that 2NT in competitive auctions is never natural, but we never know what it is ..It would be a good D-raise, better than bidding 3D.