[jillybean]

Playing LALL style puppet 1N 3C 3D denies a 5 card major but is silent about a 4 card major.

What does responder do with both 4 card majors, use 2C stayman?

[Hanoi5]

I'd say so, 'cause responder is supposed to bid the Major he doesn't have and opener bids 3NT when he doesn't have 4 cards in the not-mentioned-but-meant Major.

[JLOGIC]

yes

[gwnn]

Note that if you follow this style 100% of the time then
1NT-2C
2D-3NT
is only made with 4-4 in the majors and probably should be alerted.

[helene_t]

gwnn, on 2013-June-21, 00:43, said:

Note that if you follow this style 100% of the time then
1NT-2C
2D-3NT
is only made with 4-4 in the majors and probably should be alerted.

why? with 4-3 you use puppet but with 4-2 it doesn't matter if you use puppet or regular stayman.

[mike777]

but YOU ALL I mean you all assume 5-3 better than than 3nt but you assume with no science.

[gwnn]

helene_t, on 2013-June-21, 02:56, said:

why? with 4-3 you use puppet but with 4-2 it doesn't matter if you use puppet or regular stayman.

The information leakage is less with 4-2 (you don't tell opps whether opener has 4 cards in the other major) so it's better to use puppet. Of course maybe it's best to use a mixed strategy.

[Free]

gwnn, on 2013-June-21, 03:23, said:

The information leakage is less with 4-2 (you don't tell opps whether opener has 4 cards in the other major) so it's better to use puppet. Of course maybe it's best to use a mixed strategy.

You can turn that around and say you don't want to leak info that opener has a 5 card M or OM after puppet stayman.

It's probably best to use regular stayman when you hold a 4♥-2♠, and mixed strategy when holding 4♠-2♥.

[gwnn]

Free, on 2013-June-21, 03:35, said:

You can turn that around and say you don't want to leak info that opener has a 5 card M or OM after puppet stayman.

It's probably best to use regular stayman when you hold a 4♥-2♠, and mixed strategy when holding 4♠-2♥.

You can but it's an obviously less likely case.

[MickyB]

gwnn, on 2013-June-21, 03:23, said:

The information leakage is less with 4-2 (you don't tell opps whether opener has 4 cards in the other major) so it's better to use puppet.

Meckwell disagree, despite the fact that their puppet bid is 2N [i.e. can't be doubled for the lead]. Stayman gives up more info about opener's hand, but Puppet helps more with the opening lead.

[PhilKing]

mike777, on 2013-June-21, 03:14, said:

but YOU ALL I mean you all assume 5-3 better than than 3nt but you assume with no science.

They do?

The science involves responder looking at their hand. They then invoke the dreaded puppet Stayman with, say, Hxx and a small doubleton.

More science is possible, but the cost is prohibitive.

[gwnn]

@MickyB: Can't it be that they find 2♣ then 3NT showing 4-4 as undesirable?

[MickyB]

Free, on 2013-June-21, 03:35, said:

You can turn that around and say you don't want to leak info that opener has a 5 card M or OM after puppet stayman.

It's probably best to use regular stayman when you hold a 4♥-2♠, and mixed strategy when holding 4♠-2♥.

Why the difference between the majors?

gwnn, on 2013-June-21, 03:49, said:

You can but it's an obviously less likely case.

A 5-card major is less frequent, but the leakage is much more serious. If I show four hearts, I can still have 2-5 cards in each minor. If I show five hearts, I have 2-3 cards in each outside suit.

gwnn, on 2013-June-21, 04:06, said:

@MickyB: Can't it be that they find 2♣ then 3NT showing 4-4 as undesirable?

Possibly - it is highly undesirable in my experience - but then why not use a mixed strategy?

[Free]

MickyB, on 2013-June-21, 04:18, said:

Why the difference between the majors?

When opener holds 4-4M he'll respond 2♥ over regular Stayman.
- With 4♠-2♥ you'll leak lots of information to find your 4-4 ♠ fit.
- When you hold 4♥-2♠ and partner responds 2♠, only 4 cards are known to opps.

[jillybean]

What exactly do you mean about using a "mixed strategy"?

[Free]

jillybean, on 2013-June-21, 23:46, said:

What exactly do you mean about using a "mixed strategy"?

Mixed strategy is a term to describe you use several methods for 1 type of hand. Say you have 3 options with the same goal without a clear superior method, then you can try to use method A 33%, method B 33% and method C 33% at random. It's also possible to use other percentages, like 50-25-25 if for example method A is a bit superior. The randomness makes it impossible to deduct anything from which method you eventually use.

In this case it means you pick 'at random' if you'll use regular or puppet stayman.

[Free]

MickyB, on 2013-June-21, 04:00, said:

Meckwell disagree, despite the fact that their puppet bid is 2N [i.e. can't be doubled for the lead]. Stayman gives up more info about opener's hand, but Puppet helps more with the opening lead.

I believe that if you always use Puppet Stayman with 4-3 and regular Stayman with 4-4 or 4-2 then opener can deduct that responder is short in opener's Major after the auction 1NT-2♣-2M-3NT. Given that they also have a method to show shortness in case of 4-1 or 4-0 the 3NT in this example draws quite a clear picture of responder's hand.

[MickyB]

Free, on 2013-June-22, 00:44, said:

I believe that if you always use Puppet Stayman with 4-3 and regular Stayman with 4-4 or 4-2 then opener can deduct that responder is short in opener's Major after the auction 1NT-2♣-2M-3NT. Given that they also have a method to show shortness in case of 4-1 or 4-0 the 3NT in this example draws quite a clear picture of responder's hand.

Sure, but how useful is it to know that LHO has two and RHO has four or five? It won't often be clear to lead the suit just because LHO can't have three cards there, and the defenders will have a pretty clear picture of dummy's hand once it is on the table.

[MickyB]

Free, on 2013-June-21, 12:21, said:

When opener holds 4-4M he'll respond 2♥ over regular Stayman.
- With 4♠-2♥ you'll leak lots of information to find your 4-4 ♠ fit.
- When you hold 4♥-2♠ and partner responds 2♠, only 4 cards are known to opps.

Ok, yes fair enough, 1N:2C, 2H:3N, 4S does leak more info than 1N:2C, 2H:4H, assuming you respond 2H to Stayman with 4-4 majors. I don't understand your second point, though. 1N:2C, 2H:3N and 1N:2C, 2S:3N are equally informative to oppo.

[jillybean]

Free, on 2013-June-22, 00:33, said:

Mixed strategy is a term to describe you use several methods for 1 type of hand. Say you have 3 options with the same goal without a clear superior method, then you can try to use method A 33%, method B 33% and method C 33% at random. It's also possible to use other percentages, like 50-25-25 if for example method A is a bit superior. The randomness makes it impossible to deduct anything from which method you eventually use.

In this case it means you pick 'at random' if you'll use regular or puppet stayman.

Thanks, is this legal?    moo