[gwnn]

---

You are welcome to complain about the 2♣ bid but I hope it will not become the most important part of this thread.

[Zelandakh]

I would not have overcalled 2♣. After 2♠, North doubles. That is probably going to get us into trouble here, probably in 3♣, but that just highlights the issue of the initial action.

[Cyberyeti]

N doubles showing both unbid suits, S bids 3♦ showing <14 by lack of a 2N bid, N passes, and no I wouldn't have overcalled, not even close.

[PhilKing]

Pass throughout.

Having overcalled, obviously North doubles and South bids 3♦. North should pass that - any thought of 5♦ or a sexy 4♥ on a 4-2 fit, should be suppressed. With xx x AQxx AKxxxx or similar, South can jump to 4♦, and game is still no claimer.

[Zelandakh]

Double promises both unbid suits for both of you? I would happily double with a heart more and a diamond less - I really do not want to be forced into bidding 3♥ with that hand.

[helene_t]

dbl could also be hearts with clubs tolerance so maybe South can bid 2NT showing diamonds? Maybe that's a bad idea as it will tend to wrongside 3NT.

Alternatively, S can just bid 3♦. He does have some heart tolerance after all.

[PhilKing]

Zelandakh, on 2013-June-20, 03:39, said:

Double promises both unbid suits for both of you? I would happily double with a heart more and a diamond less - I really do not want to be forced into bidding 3♥ with that hand.

No. It does not promise both other suits, but it suggests the ability to handle any minimum bid. So to double without 4♦ needs a good hand. If we can't respond 3♦ to double with this pattern, there is something very wrong with the methods. Yes, partner could have a 3532 11 count, but 3♦ may be no worse than the alternatives.

[the_clown]

I think X-3♣ is very reasonable. I would happily double with 3523 or similar, so I think that 3♦ should show something better than this garbage.

[karlson]

I think double shows hearts and another place to play and south pulls to 2n, scrambling. Since south might be 2335 or whatnot, north might just choose the known 5-2 fit, but I think 3♦ would be reasonable.

[Zelandakh]

How useful do you find a natural 2NT here Phil? It looks like it would be an option to use the 2NT advance to show a minimum with diamonds rather than showing anything specific in spades. If we want to continue to game, we can still check back for a stopper using 3♠.

[PhilKing]

.

[PhilKing]

Zelandakh, on 2013-June-20, 04:41, said:

How useful do you find a natural 2NT here Phil? It looks like it would be an option to use the 2NT advance to show a minimum with diamonds rather than showing anything specific in spades. If we want to continue to game, we can still check back for a stopper using 3♠.

Not that useful, but it fits in with my rules. It seems to me that when I overcall and partner shows interest, I have no need for lebensohl - I can just bid the level myself. Scramble has some mileage, but I don't like the idea that we can double and stop in 3♣ with 5H3C at all. Partner just shows a good club raise and then bids hearts if strong enough. It's not as if double solves anything whith that pattern, and you can still find the heart fit when opener has extras and advancer lacks the values to go past 3C.

[the hog]

I would have passed as South of course. Having the wine waiter bid 2C, I would x now as Nth.

[gwnn]

the hog, on 2013-June-20, 05:07, said:

I would have passed as South of course. Having the wine waiter bid 2C, I would x now as Nth.

And then what?

[ahydra]

Surprised at this - I thought everyone and their mother would overcall 2C with 11 high mostly primes, a well-placed SK, good suit (against 3NT by W you'd want a club lead for sure), favourable vul. I guess the hand doesn't actually have that much trick-taking potential though.

After the given start I would continue X-(p)-3C-out.

ahydra

[Winstonm]

Don't like 2C. Would double with N hand, bid 3D with South, pass as north.

[ggwhiz]

I agree with double followed by 3♦ float and on these colours would overcall 2♣ but only at MP's.

I also play 2nt natural to show (hopefully) running clubs and a spade stop in a hand where pard can retreat to 3♣ on a stiff with some confidence if they have to.

[inquiry]

When I first learned about responsive doubles it was common that a 2NT rebid by "overcaller" showed stopper and extra values.

However, it soon became obvious that on auctions like... 1A - 2B - 2A - Dbl- Pass- 2NT is not right with a) extra values, b) the suit you overcalled, and c) stopper(s) in opener's suit. If your suit was "good" enough, 3NT was right, if not, pass was right since partner had the other suits. So 2NT is best used as a conventional something.

The what it is, of course, is a horse of different color. It could be lebenhshol, it could be a diamond suit with longer clubs (by two or more), it could be scrambling -- looking for the best spot (likely 2-3-3-5 or 1-3-4-5). Of course, we you agreed to play responsive doubles after an overcall and a raise, you should have had sound agreements on what such a bi means (another one to have discussed is 1A-DBL-2S-DBL - Pass - 2NT.

If the double on this auction shows both red suits for sure, then overcaller has an easy 3♦ bid. For me, responsive doubles show both unbid suits after an overcall. If one treats this responsive double like a negative double and only promises hearts, you can not afford to rebid 3♦. In that case, you must play the 2NT here as scrambling, suggesting either 2-3-3-5, or 1-3-4-5 so you can get to your potential 5-3 heart fit, or maybe a 5-3 or 5-4 club fit (if partner is allowed to have hearts and clubs).

The use of lebehnshol 2NT is interesting here, it allows you to rebid 3H or 3D with sound overcalls and to invite partner to bid more, or even rebid 3C as an invitation for partner to bid again, to bid 2NT to transfer to 3C to show a weaker hand where you wanted to sign off in one of three suits. This still leaves a cue-bid and 2NT followed by 3NT or some other forcing bid (like a cue-bid) as game forcing options. You can reverse the meaning of the direct 3 of suit and 2NT so that strong hands go through 2NT and weaker hands go through 2NT if you like. An advantage here of reversing them is if West gets the urge to rebid 3S before you showed your "second suit" or longer clubs, your partner is in better position to decide to bid again (or double) based on what your suit is. Of course, against better players, your LHO would be unlikely to bid again on this auction.

If you don't play the good/bad meaning to 2NT here, and if you partner promised both red suits, then 2NT is better reserved for the two plus longer club suit plus diamonds (most likely 6 clubs, and four diamonds).

[the hog]

gwnn, on 2013-June-20, 05:08, said:

And then what?

3D by South and all out.