[barmar]

barmar, on 2013-June-12, 08:54, said:

Good point. I've just written to rulings@acbl.org asking if they understand what's going on. And I wrote to my district chairman (who happens also to be the BoD chairman).

Got a reply from Sam Whitten, Manager of Bridge Administration:

Quote

The motion you referenced below was meant to clarify inconsistency in our current regulations. Specifically, the weak jump shift by advancer is identified as alertable on our current Alert Chart. The regulation in question was only meant to apply to natural weak jump shifts. Conventional weak jump shifts still require an alert.

He's right. In http://www.acbl.org/.../AlertChart.pdf the last item in the Alert column, in the Defensive Bids section, is "Natural weak jump-shifts by advancer". This was a conflict between the Alert Procedures and the Alert Chart, so now the chart will match the procedures.

[Fluffy]

I have this problem often because I don't play transfers over my 1NT opening, and I have to ask the directors if they want me to alert or not, in the world championship in Lille it took them 36 hours to answer the question althou I guess they weren't really worried about it.


Appart form having firm agreements, what if you are playing with a pick up partner?, would you alert when you have no agreement?

[gnasher]

Fluffy, on 2013-June-22, 08:01, said:

I have this problem often because I don't play transfers over my 1NT opening, and I have to ask the directors if they want me to alert or not, in the world championship in Lille it took them 36 hours to answer the question althou I guess they weren't really worried about it.

The WBF rules tell us that "Conventional bids should be alerted, non-conventional bids should not.", so in theory natural bids (without a jump) should not be alerted.

However, most of your opponents will not have read the rules (it's only a World Championship, after all). They will naturally assume that transfers aren't alertable because "everyone" plays them, or because transfers aren't alertable in their home country, or because nobody else seems to be alerting them. When you make your natural bid they will assume it's a transfer.

The rules also say that "players must respect the spirit of the Policy as well as the letter". Presumably that means that you should make some effort to save the opponents from misunderstanding your bids (an admirable objective). Hence you should alert your natural responses anyway.

Quote

Appart form having firm agreements, what if you are playing with a pick up partner?, would you alert when you have no agreement?

In the WBF that's easy: "Players are, however, expected to alert whenever there is doubt."

Both of these are a matter of regulation, so different jurisdictions will have different rules.

[barmar]

gnasher, on 2013-June-22, 11:14, said:

However, most of your opponents will not have read the rules (it's only a World Championship, after all). They will naturally assume that transfers aren't alertable because "everyone" plays them, or because transfers aren't alertable in their home country, or because nobody else seems to be alerting them. When you make your natural bid they will assume it's a transfer.

Are there many places where transfers are neither alerted nor announced?

And how many players coming from these countries would be so new to international competition that they wouldn't be aware that transfers are alertable in most other places, and particularly world championshps?

[Fluffy]

gnasher, on 2013-June-22, 11:14, said:

Hence you should alert your natural responses anyway.

What scares me is that I alert (or not) then My RHO doubles thinking it is transfer because I alert or not alert and then I am to blame.

To barmar: Transfer and stayman are not alerted in Spain, and I pray that my NBO never hears about announcing because it would be a cheater's dream.

[blackshoe]

Just about anything could be a "cheater's dream". Are there really that many cheaters in Spain?

[Trinidad]

barmar, on 2013-June-23, 20:15, said:

Are there many places where transfers are neither alerted nor announced?

The Netherlands changed its alert policy about 3 years ago to make Jacoby transfers alertable. Before that, Jacoby transfers were not alertable as long as the NT opening was followed by a pass. (They didn't need to be announced either since announcements don't exist in the Netherlands).

FWIW, I agree with Fluffy. It is better without announcements.

Rik

[pran]

Trinidad, on 2013-June-24, 08:00, said:

The Netherlands changed its alert policy about 3 years ago to make Jacoby transfers alertable. Before that, Jacoby transfers were not alertable as long as the NT opening was followed by a pass. (They didn't need to be announced either since announcements don't exist in the Netherlands).

FWIW, I agree with Fluffy. It is better without announcements.

Rik

The current regulation in Norway requires opening bids in the range 1NT - 2♠ (but no other calls) to be announced.

It appears to me that this is a rather fortunate regulation.

[Vampyr]

Fluffy, on 2013-June-24, 04:43, said:

[/size]
To barmar: Transfer and stayman are not alerted in Spain, and I pray that my NBO never hears about announcing because it would be a cheater's dream.

I think that most pairs know whether they play transfers over their NT openings. But I have never played in Spain; their mileage may vary.

[aguahombre]

Vampyr, on 2013-June-24, 10:09, said:

I think that most pairs know whether they play transfers over their NT openings. But I have never played in Spain; their mileage may vary.

Yes, that is the key, IMO. The announcements are for first-response actions which the partnership show know anyway, but the opponents should not have to guess about. I am not worried about the "c" word and have very little concern about UI in these situations.

[TylerE]

Vampyr, on 2013-June-24, 10:09, said:

I think that most pairs know whether they play transfers over their NT openings. But I have never played in Spain; their mileage may vary.

The problem, from what I have observed, is when the "announcement" is made in a non-announcement situation and it wakes dear pard up.

1NT (2♦) 2♥ ("Transfer!" and cue deer in headlights look)

[Vampyr]

TylerE, on 2013-June-24, 12:00, said:

The problem, from what I have observed, is when the "announcement" is made in a non-announcement situation and it wakes dear pard up.

I don't see this happening very frequently; anyway it would result in a relatively simple UI ruling.

[TylerE]

You might not see it, but I'm telling you that in the weakish club games and lower level tournaments around here I see it, in the flesh, non-hypothetically, way too often for comfort.

[blackshoe]

TylerE, on 2013-June-24, 12:21, said:

You might not see it, but I'm telling you that in the weakish club games and lower level tournaments around here I see it, in the flesh, non-hypothetically, way too often for comfort.

Do you call the director when you see it?

[TylerE]

Yes, to essentially no results. A big part of why I mostly don't play locally anymore.

[aguahombre]

I don't understand. Are you saying that because some people announce when they shouldn't, the announcement concept itself is bad?

Sounds like the same thing that is causing the appeals process to go away because some people didn't like a particular AC decision.

[TylerE]

Frankly, YES, I do think announcements are bad.

I'd also generally like to see the alert procedure harmonized such that common actions are not alertable to the greatest extend possible, to minimize UI transmitted. For instance, I would support a change such that 1N-p-2♥ is unalertable (or annouced) if it shows spades, but alerted (and not announced) if anything else, including natural.

[barmar]

Would it be any better if it were alerted instead of announced? It doesn't seem like it.

[TylerE]

Yes, because when it's an alert, it gives us the opportunity to NOT ask (and thus minimize the waking up) when we don't care.

[Fluffy]

The problem with announcements is that in Spain they would be optional, since people do stops if they want or not, nobody complains when people insta pass. Now I think of it, it is not really different from alerting transfer or not (nobody will rule against your for alerting or not alerting transfer here). But with voices people transmit info involuntarily.