[HeartA]

---

You open 1S, bidding goes:
1S-(2H)-2S-p-?

What would you bid?

[TylerE]

4♠ easy

[ArtK78]

3♦. Easy.

The hand is not realy good enough for a unilateral game bid opposite a competitive raise. I make a natural game try.

[PhilKing]

3♣. Psychic long-suit try. Easy.

[billw55]

PhilKing, on 2013-June-17, 13:07, said:

3♣. Psychic long-suit try. Easy.

I like messing with ops as much as the next guy, but won't this get an accept from partner with broken clubs such as QTxx - just what we don't want? Or perhaps you are bidding game all along so this does not bother you?

I'm with Art, a card or two in diamonds will go a long way to making 10 tricks.

[Codo]

So 3 ♥ is left as a semi bluff?! No, I try 3♦ too.

[mikeh]

depends on the scoring.

At imps I would just bid game.

Firstly, I expect game to have some play most of the time.

Secondly, I feel that game tries give away a lot of information on hands on which limiting information may gain us a trick in the play. If you were on lead with say xx KJ10xxx KQx Kx, what would you lead against a blast to 4♠? I'd lead a diamond. But I'd lead trump after a game try in diamonds, just as one example.

Thirdly, it is easy to construct hands on which he should reject a try in diamonds yet game is reasonable.

I'd blast even white, which may sound inconsistent with my view at mps which is that I'd make the game try at mps. I do so to avoid bad games more than to reach good games.

[awm]

I'd bid 4♠ for much the same reasons Mikeh gives... and that includes at MP scoring. If I'm bidding game anyway, I see no reason to futz around with phony game tries, and it's way too easy to construct hands where game is good even if partner declines a game try or where the game try helps the opponents on defense to make a legitimate try.

[HeartA]

It was IMP.

Here is South's hand: ♠Qxx, ♥xx, ♦Qxxx, ♣QJ9x

Should South accept invitation (North bid 3♦) or not?

I would have bid 4♠ directly. Any cards from South would be helpful, except ♣Q, even ♥Qx(x) or ♥Jxx is useful. An average 7-8 hcp hand from South would be good for game.

[Zelandakh]

HeartA, on 2013-June-17, 22:24, said:

Here is South's hand: ♠Qxx, ♥xx, ♦Qxxx, ♣QJ9x

Should South accept invitation (North bid 3♦) or not?

You are at the lower end of your range with soft values and have no help in diamonds. If you bid game with this hand you may as well just stop making game tries.

[TylerE]

Since when is Qxxx not help? I mean, it's not ideal, but it's it's not 3 small or some really bad holding like that.

[mikeh]

HeartA, on 2013-June-17, 22:24, said:

It was IMP.

Here is South's hand: ♠Qxx, ♥xx, ♦Qxxx, ♣QJ9x

Should South accept invitation (North bid 3♦) or not?

I would have bid 4♠ directly. Any cards from South would be helpful, except ♣Q, even ♥Qx(x) or ♥Jxx is useful. An average 7-8 hcp hand from South would be good for game.

I wouldn't bid game with this hand after a 3♦ try.

When playing with less-experienced players (which I should do more often, but I don't really play at all anymore), I used to discuss these sorts of tries. Imo, to accept a help suit/long suit try, responder needs to do more than just look at his holding in the suit.

He needs to assess whether his raise was within the mid to upper part of the range for the raise. For example, with xxx xx KQxx xxxx, had I bid 2♠ on the given auction, I would NOT accept a 3♦ try. I have a sub-minimum raise and my superb help in diamonds shouldn't be enough. If it is, partner had a 4♠ bid rather than a game try.

So in this case, the raise was in the minimum part of the spectrum. Pure 'walter the walrus' types will say, no doubt, that the range is maybe 5-9 and we have 7 and a doubleton heart so it's mid-range, but proper valuation suggests that this is what is known as a very soft 7 count. It lacks any Aces or Kings, and Q's and J's are over-valued in the 4321 count, especially in trump contracts.

If as opener all you need is a fitting minimum, just bid game. You gain when he has a fitting hand, minimum or otherwise, and often you find that a non-fitting 'good' raise makes up for the lack of fit and, as I pointed out in my first post on this thread, concealment of your hand-type will often make defence very difficult, thus allowing you to score up the game even when you 'should' go down.

[gnasher]

The responding hand isn't so bad: it has more high cards than it might have had, and what it has is outside hearts. As well as the diamond and spade honours, you can hope for either the clubs or the doubleton heart to be useful. As responder I'd bid 3♥ to show a middling hand.

[ArtK78]

HeartA, on 2013-June-17, 22:24, said:

It was IMP.

Here is South's hand: ♠Qxx, ♥xx, ♦Qxxx, ♣QJ9x

Should South accept invitation (North bid 3♦) or not?

I would have bid 4♠ directly. Any cards from South would be helpful, except ♣Q, even ♥Qx(x) or ♥Jxx is useful. An average 7-8 hcp hand from South would be good for game.

Here is how I would evaluate this game try situation based on modified LTC.

Typically, if opener has a 5 loser hand, he will bid game after a raise by responder. An opening hand with 6 losers would make a game try.

Opposite a game try of 3♦, responder knows that his ♠Q covers one loser and his ♦Q covers another loser. He has potential cover cards in hearts (the doubleton) and clubs. Since his hand potentially has 3 cover cards for partner's presumed 6 loser hand, he should make a responsive try (as a bid is available between 3♦ and 3♠). He should bid 3♥. Opener can then evaluate his hand opposite a partner known to be close to 3 cover cards. Given that opener has a very nice 6 loser hand, opener should bid game.

Others may arrive at the same conclusion using evaluation methods that approximate modified LTC. Clearly, the ♠Q and the ♦Q are big cards opposite a hand interested in game and showing length in diamonds. The question is whether those two cards, together with potentially useful holdings in the rounded suits, are enough. So you throw the problem back at opener by bidding 3♥.

[billw55]

mikeh, on 2013-June-18, 11:27, said:

When playing with less-experienced players (which I should do more often, but I don't really play at all anymore), I used to discuss these sorts of tries. Imo, to accept a help suit/long suit try, responder needs to do more than just look at his holding in the suit.

He needs to assess whether his raise was within the mid to upper part of the range for the raise. For example, with xxx xx KQxx xxxx, had I bid 2♠ on the given auction, I would NOT accept a 3♦ try. I have a sub-minimum raise and my superb help in diamonds shouldn't be enough. If it is, partner had a 4♠ bid rather than a game try.

Interesting, this exactly how I thought a help suit game try does not work. The way I learned it, the tryer (?) is not interested in responder's relative strength within his range, but rather in specific locations of values - and therefore that your example hand most certainly should accept! For example opener might have ♦ATxx and shortness elsewhere - which would be ideal opposite those xxxx in your example.

[JLOGIC]

Not bidding game is just ludicrous imo.

[HeartA]

JLOGIC, on 2013-June-18, 18:38, said:

Not bidding game is just ludicrous imo.

Which side? North or South?

[JLOGIC]

Sorry, meant over 2S.

[Zelandakh]

billw55, on 2013-June-18, 13:01, said:

Interesting, this exactly how I thought a help suit game try does not work.

I have always taught HSGTs the way Mike describes, albeit simplified for beginner level:-
If max, bid game.
If min, sign off.
If in-between, look at your holding in the bid suit and use that to help you decide.
If you are still completely uncertain, bid a new suit below 3 of the agreed suit to ask partner what they think.

That's just a special way of saying to look at the overall hand with a special reference to the help suit. Also, while Qxxx is quite a good holding opposite a LSGT, it is poor opposite a HSGT - imagine ♦xxx opposite and then consider various possible diamond holdings. I still say that if Opener needs a hand like this one for game, they should have just bid game themselves. That makes life easier for Responder too - otherwise they are pretty much accepting a game try on anything.

[PhilKing]

billw55, on 2013-June-17, 13:34, said:

I like messing with ops as much as the next guy, but won't this get an accept from partner with broken clubs such as QTxx - just what we don't want? Or perhaps you are bidding game all along so this does not bother you?

I'm with Art, a card or two in diamonds will go a long way to making 10 tricks.

Yep, bidding game anyway. It would be poor to psyche if I did not know what to do over the likely continuations. And we are alerting 3♣ as two-way.