[inquiry]

Hi...

As you know, Bridge Base Online allows tournment play now. Perhaps you have played in one or more of these by now. But as a beginner or novice, you may feel overwhelmed by the atmosphere, or the opponents, when facing players with gold stars or moving to a table with 40 kibitizers.

But it is fairly easy to arrange tournaments, so that a tournament or group of tournments exclusively for novice/beginners or novice/beginners/and intermediate skill players can be arranged.

Question to the members of the Beginner/Intermediate forum. Would there be any interest in such an event or would you rather all tournaments be open to all players? If you think novice/beginner tournament should be arrange occassionally, what criteria should the tournment host use for excluding players who are too good?

You can reply to this thread, or instant message me with your replies.

Ben

[Laird]

Hi Ben

You have anticipated my next post
I took part in a tournament last night and also today.....

I found it an exciting experience but things tended to happen very quickly... very little time to exchange pleasantries or consider the pro's and con's of any of the hands.
The first game was fine fairly neutral and then we were swished away to play against.....'Rado' and his partner .... I couldn't see his name for the glint of gold coming from their badges. The crowd at the table was also a bit daunting... I didn't have the sense to turn down the sound of slamming doors after I started to play.
The rest of the night passed away quite quickly and without incident... but i know that it took several hands for me to calm down after the disasters at Rado's table.
Regarding novices and beginners I think that the speed of an open event would be too much and a gentler approach would I believe be of benefit.
The absence of badges would also I believe help to reduce the intimadatory impact of playing against such renowned opponents. That is not to say that they were not perfect in their approach and most welcoming.
However, on the other hand, seeing such badges also acts as a spur to try to play well?
I also feel that a tourney of Intermediates/ advanced players may also be of benefit. Progression after gaining experience of playing at this level would help to ensure that all were better prepared for entry to the open competition. I would imagine that experts playing against the likes of me and my partner could result in pretty wild random fluctuations in the scoring.
I have to admit that the tounaments are exciting if only I could understand the scoring ..cross imps?

Ben, I would also like to thank you for the amount of work you put into ' The Beginners Guide to Signaling .... absolutely wonderful!!

John

[inquiry]

Cross imps works this way... There is an imp table (check this link to see one).. .that converts your "raw score" into an imp score.... http://www.users.qwest.net/~jplanier/bridg...dge/dupIMP.html That link gives a nice explaination of cross imp scoring, but in short it works like this...

Say you are in 2D making 2, for +90
at another table it is 5D -2 for -100
Finally at a third table its 1NT making 2 for +120

Against one team you are ahead by 190 points (your +90 compared to their -100)
At the other you are behind by 30 (+120 is 30 more than +90).

So against the second team, you look up in the imp table and find you lose 1 imp. Against the other, you are ahead +190, you look that up and find that wins 5 imps.

So you are +5 and -1 for net +4. You divide that by the number of opponents you are playing against (2 other teams), for a net +2-imps. So your score would be 2 imps.

Point IMPS
Difference won or lost
0-10 0
20-40 1
50-80 2
90-120 3
130-160 4
170-210 5

[hallway]

Great idea Ben

I hope your INSTANT MESSAGE box is overflowing with positive responses (John & I can't be the only BLI members of BBF ---- are we ? : )

I agree with John's comments - also

(a) Reasons for more Time for playing the Boards - BNs are less likely to claim early , if at all. But I believe Fred/Uday are going to change the way the timing works so this may become a non issue.

( Kibitzing - it is intimidating knowing that people are watching - turning down/switching off the speakers helps but you still know they are there :-[. Is it possible to have Kibbing Disallowed while still giving the Directors access to the tables ?

How on earth you will determine whether or not those that register are indeed genuine BNs / BLIs I have no idea - the little grey cells fail me . One would suppose that players of some recognised ability would not want the frustration of playing in such company. Maybe once would be enough ;D for any that do - they could find themselves in an awful quagmire if they paid too much attention to my bidding and as for deciphering my count, attitude & suit preferences ......... :

I'm looking forward to the challenge Ben .. it should be great fun.

[Cave_Draco]

Lol, Maureen, good points!

(a) Beginners need time to think; only the other day an intermediate asked us to slow down!

( Actually, it's all in the mind! Novices/Beginners/Intermediates are allowed mistakes... try Advanced/Expert, lol.

© Anyone who consistently wins against B/N/Is is not a BNI, ;D.

Good idea, Ben.

Even better if Advanced/Expert players can find the time to go over the hands played. Doesn't have to be on an individual basis, just a review of the hands played.

[inquiry]

Hi Maureen,

I hope your INSTANT MESSAGE box is overflowing with positive responses

Nope. Not an IM yet. But the lack of overwhelming support never stops me... all we need is two tables and it should be a go (more on that below).

Other points you raised
a) Time. I would certaintly run this as a non=timed event, so tiem is not an issue... and hey, I don't have to be the only one thinking novice events.... maybe some experienced directors can set these up too....

( Kibitzing - I don't know how to turn kibitizing off in tournments, but I would think few people would kibitiz novices unless they were watching one of their students so they could offer advice later. Maybe the next release of software will give kibitzer control to the playrers during tournments.

c) who gets to play? This is the big problem. We can advertise as "novice tourment, novice players only" or something like that. But not everyone reads english, and apparently, not everyone pays attention to what is written even if they do.

One solution is to have pairs pre-register and then play a series of team games. In team games, the director gets to pick who plays and at what tables.Thus, anyone with "expert" or "advanced" or "intermediate" picked as their skill level would not be seated... on the down side, only two tables in play at anyone time (although could have a group of two table novice events at the same time). While this could work, I think it defeats much of the purpose. To provide a lot of novice/beginners with the same hands and then provide an opporunity for feed back like our favorite dragon suggested right here in the BBF.

I do know that 2over1 and vikicata have offered to help in anyway they can... and I am sure others would too. We may just have to pick a date, advertise it heavily as a novice/beginner event, and see if anyone turns up... I see two possible problems, not enough beginners have any interest in playing in such an event, and 2 all the intermediate/advanced players sign up and intimidate the beginners/novices... ( I know a few "BBO experts" that I would allow to play...simply because, well, EXPERT they are not... lol..but funny, most who mark themselves as advanced generally are).

Ben

[hallway]

Oh NO !! "not an IM yet"

I really didn't believe that John and I are the only BLIs - and he is more I than I :'( :'(

I think maybe you should stick to the current BBO skill level chart and advertise them as :

Novice / Beginner / Intermediate IMPs Tournament/s

The Prize - any pairing gaining three straight WINS will be PROMOTED to Intermediate / Advanced IMPs Tournaments


Only one way to find out Ben - give it a go - set a date 8)

M

BTW readers to send Ben an IM just click on his user name (inquiry) his profile will come up then just click 'send this member a message' alternatively click on your 'messages' at the top of the screen and select 'newmsg'

- he really does want to hear from you

[badderzboy]

I think this would be a great idea and a gentle way to break into playing tournaments. I've been playing for about a year so I qualify as a beginner and haven't yet played in a tournamment online although I've kibitzed a few.

The potential to let down a partner against such austere opposition has put me off a little!

One minor suggestion would be to ensure that people alert the conventions they are using whilst bidding in those tournaments or ensure the convention cards are completed. This would introduce us to the other systems and at potentially get a basic understanding of the others

A potential tournament could even be teams of ACOL vs Basic SAYC v's Basic 2/1 v's Precision for beginners.

In terms of excluding players who are too good, if someone wants to play to boost their ego then never mind more fool them. What will they achieve, I would suggest that the makeup of the tournaments would be similar people and so people might want to praise them and suggest they are no longer a beginner/novice etc. It's also a reasonable way of finding out what your profile should be!

I suspect mine will be spot on....lol

[Rhutobello]

I will just give my vote to Ben and his tournamment for us lower player ;D

I have tried one tourny and I think I become a bit scarred after that. Maybe most because of the jumping between tables, what shall happen next and so on :

So I think a more slow approch would be nice ;D

On the other hand, the only way to improve our skill is to play ageinst better players, but maybe normal room is better for that ;D

I will use the opertunity to thank Ben (and others)for always to give very good and usefull info on every subject he (they)respont to. It is a nice gesture to us who want to learn ;D Thanks all ;D
Edvin

[inquiry]

Hi Edvin,

You are certainly right... the best way to improve your play at virtually any game is to play against better opposition. I don't think beginners should ONLY play in novice/beginner tournments.

However, there is a lot to be said for getting one's feet wet playing against others of like experience. Many on-line players have never played in tournment, real-world or on-line before. My thoughts are that a friendly, forgiving, low-key (but hopefully still competitive) novice event would allow everyone to be introduced to the way tournments work, have fun, and meet players of similiar experience.

I also thought that it interesting aspects of these events could be commented on by more skilled players within this Beginner forum, it might attract more beginners to the BBF pages, and serve as useful educational tool...

I will set one up soon... Next question, slower time per board seems to be requested, so I think these should be mini-tournments at first. Maybe 8 to 10 to 12 boards. Any thoughts on how many boards should be played.

Ben

[Cave_Draco]

With respect to systems... it would seem appropriate to favour BridgeBase Basic for Novice/Beginner tournaments.

It is a sound but simple system that requires a minimum of alerting and it allows the widest selection of partners.

While other systems have their merits, I feel that coping with the Weak NT, etc. may just muddy the waters?

Intermediates, fine - Precision/Acol whatever, ;D.

I don't really know, I'm not suggesting barring other systems, but when I learnt the game... we all sang from the same song sheet & only later did we diverge.

[Rhutobello]

Quote

. My thoughts are that a friendly, forgiving, low-key (but hopefully still competitive) novice event would allow everyone to be introduced to the way tournments work, have fun, and meet players of similiar experience.

Sound like heaven for me ;D YES, this I want! 8)

I also thought that it interesting aspects of these events could be commented on by more skilled players within this Beginner forum, it might attract more beginners to the BBF pages, and serve as useful educational tool...

Agein a very good idea,

I will set one up soon... Next question, slower time per board seems to be requested, so I think these should be mini-tournments at first. Maybe 8 to 10 to 12 boards. Any thoughts on how many boards should be played.

Well for me I think 1 hour tournament would be nice. In the one tourny I played, we finished all boards within the time limits, so it wasen't shortness in playingtime that put me off, more the new stuff and "what shall happen next", and ..and. ..but..here have you described a nice cure for me ;D ;D

So my only hope is that I will be able to attend to your tournys, and if I am not , then it is more because of my working situation (one mans shop,never free, 7 days a week.... hey stop complaining ) then lack of interest Good luck, and agein Thanks!
Edvin

[inquiry]

Hi all,

I will established the first Novice/Beginner Tournment for this saturday. If I do it right, it will start at 11:00 AM EST, saturday june 21. Since no one offered a counter suggestion, this will be a 12 board cross imp event. At rain's suggestion, it will not show up in the tournment list until tomorrow to avoid a lot of no shows... thanks Rain

For this first novice tournment.. kibitizers will be allowed, but silenced, and undo's will be allowed... if your opponents agree. After all, this will be a friendly, educational kind of event. Future events we can block kibitizers, or allow them to speak, and not allow undo's... it will be up to the members of this forum to decide how I run my beginner/novice events.

I hope you can all make it!!!

Ben

[Gerardo]

Not sure if tourneys with UNDO are supported at this point, I think they aren't.

......after reading about Beta 3.4.6, downloading and toured......

I take that back, but you need the 3.4.6

[inquiry]

ok.. since most will not have the new beta... undo's will not be allowed.. I forgot about that.... :-(

We will be more forgiving in THE FUTURE.....

Ben

[Gerardo]

I mean by creator. Need 3.4.6 to create a tourney with undo allowed.
Guess any client is OK after that, but not sure

[hallway]

Ben and Helpers I'll be dreaming of you.

3.13 AM Sunday :'( :'( :'( - NOT a propitious time for playing Bridge - Aged Voids need their shut eye :

[glow=red,2,300]I do most truly hope all goes well and there is a great turnout[/glow]

Mayhap a future one could start at say 3pm EST = 7am, even 2pm - one could set the alarm
There may be others residing 'downunder'.

Have a great time. I shall look forward to reading ALL about it.

[inquiry]

Quote

Ben and Helpers I'll be dreaming of you.

3.13 AM Sunday :'( :'( :'( - NOT a propitious time for playing Bridge - Aged Voids need their shut eye :

[glow=red,2,300]I do most truly hope all goes well and there is a great turnout[/glow]

Mayhap a future one could start at say 3pm EST = 7am, even 2pm - one could set the alarm
There may be others residing 'downunder'.

Have a great time. I shall look forward to reading ALL about it.

So Sorry I choose a bad time for you Maureen. :-(

We will have to find other times more suitable for you!!!

We had 24 tables, 48 pairs, 96 players. Of these, 64 players were self identified as either "beginner, novice, or intermediate" I included the small handful of no skill level selected in that group as long as I ahd no knowledge about their ability. That was good.

On the bad side, DESPITE a title that said NOVICE/Beginners only, we had 32 players at the level of Advanced or "expert" (15 expert, 17 advanced).

The tournment was won by shw playing with two different partners... raj21 and sky_plum. shw list skills as intermediate and sky_plum as beginner.

Ben

[Rain]

When's the next beginner Tourney Ben? If you're not too busy giving people failing grades



Rain

[inquiry]

Hi,

I have to rethink how to try to limit this to beginner/novices. As you know, it was just another tournment last time.... as everybody and their brother signed up regardless of skill level...