[Yzerman]

I have a friend on BBO in which we discuss bridge frequently, and although I drive him nuts, my usual comments are "that problem hand is solved if you play weak NT's".

Here are some arguments for weak NT;

a) There is naturally MORE to describe in a 15-17 hand than 11-14, so by opener 1c or 1d you have already described something in hand that 1NT can not describe.

1C and 1D openers are by inference one of 3 types of hands (a) weak hand with that minor, ( strong hand with that minor or © strong NT (or 18/19).  Given this criteria, is ALWAYS right in competitive auctions to compete heavily in that minor when fit.

c) 1NT has distinct preemptive value (must have good runouts though).  Have you ever heard the adage "Partial bidding is a race to 1NT", it WORKS.

d) Slam bidding for 15-17 hands is MUCH more easy if you start with 1c or 1d as "better minor".

e) There is DISTINCT advantage in major suit raise structures when playing 1m-1M-2M as 15-17 hands (15-17 dummy points).

Here are some conditions of weak NT that should be considered when playing;

a) Be VERY careful opening 1NT with 4/4 major hands and "good" 13 or 14 hcp (you are running big risk of playing 1NT with 8 card major fit when field is playing 2M).

If playing 11-14, this does NOT mean that every 11 or even 12 hcp balanced is to be opened 1NT.  Typically 11 point 1NT should be constructive (Akxxx suit or AK A, or 5 card suit with "good cards").  In general a REASON to open 1NT.

c) Be VERY careful with 2 suited minor/heart hands (2425 or 2452).  These are VERY awkward to bid.  If good 4 card hearts and bad diamonds either open 1H or 1N.  Just keep in mind the problems that can arise by opening 1D (or 1C) with bad hands and bad suits when partner responds 1S.

[Codo]

Hi Yzerman,

in real life, I play with two different partners. With one a kind of home made swiss acol with weak and varianle NT and with the other FES modified.
I am able to loose with any system, but I think that you named the advantages of a weak nt perfect.

But there are two very big disadvantage:
1. Once in a while they get you and you loose with 13 versus zero HCPs at the 2. level for a million. You must be able to accept this. You loose your 7 or 12 imps but you will win some 3 and 5 till it happens again.

2. You need a very good system to handle interferences.
This needs much system discussion, so it is hardly a good idea with a pick up pd to play weak NT and haven`t discussed this bríefly.

But I agree, that a good weak NT or a variable NT is better then the strong one.

Kind Regards

Roland

[Yzerman]

Quote

Hi Yzerman,

in real life, I play with two different partners. With one a kind of home made swiss acol with weak and varianle NT and with the other FES modified.
I am able to loose with any system, but I think that you named the advantages of a weak nt perfect.

But there are two very big disadvantage:
1. Once in a while they get you and you loose with 13 versus zero HCPs at the 2. level for a million. You must be able to accept this. You loose your 7 or 12 imps but you will win some 3 and 5 till it happens again.

2. You need a very good system to handle interferences.
This needs much system discussion, so it is hardly a good idea with a pick up pd to play weak NT and haven`t discussed this bríefly.

But I agree, that a good weak NT or a variable NT is better then the strong one.

Kind Regards

Roland

1) You MUST have a good runout system.  The odds of finding partner with a 4333 0 count are slim AND you have the added possiblity of having a fit in his/her 4 card suit.  For hands such as what you described, you NEED a runout/escape to find your fits.

* Of the many (perhaps 5000+, not alot but enough to comprehend 'trends') deals I have played in top level regional/national competition my partner and I have only twice went for =>800 (believe it or not).  I cant count the 380's (1nt->reX) and 500's and 800's I have tallied up because inevitably good players like to bid (over weak NT).

2. My partner and I play 2 things to facilitate over interference.  We utilize negative doubles (yes this means that even at times we open weak NT and balance with X after direct bid by LHO and Pass,Pass).  And we play a modified version of Lebensoh (detailed below).  These 2 in combination with each other are GREAT, the system has NEVER let us down but the judgment has (there is that judgment word again).

* Further notes - You have advantage YOUR partner knowing the limit of your hand, and the opps NOT knowing the limit of their hands.  So opps are ALWAYS bidding with some level of doubt while your partner can take action with some level of certainty.

* More notes - You have the added luxury of having the opps having to make a lead.  Often, this is worth a trick (if not many when they hand you a whole suit).  So the positional value of YOU playing 1nt (without opps having ANY information from the bidding) is worth a moderate number of hcp.

New lebensohl notes (this is single greatest system modification we have made in last year);

After 1N-2S (for sake of argument);

2N is relay to 3C for (a) clubs get out, ( slow stayman, © slow lebensohl, or FORCING hands (after 3C relay 3D and 3H create game force with 5+ card suits)

3C is relay 3D for (a) weak get out in diamonds (pass), ( weak get out in hearts (correct 3d to 3h), © mild slam try in diamonds (correct 3d to 3n), or (d) mild slam try in clubs (cue bid 3S)

3D/3H are invitational

[tangent]

I find that using a weak NT (including all 5M332 hands) improves the 2/1 system a lot. I feel that the weakest part of the 2/1 system is the prepared minor rebid after the forcing NT where 2C or 2D rebid can be as short as 3 (or even 2!). Playing a 12-15 1NT, your minor rebids after a forcing NT will definitely be natural 4 cards. You do lose the ability to rebid 2NT with 18-19 (it's now 16-17) after a 1S opening though. It is also necessary to play the 1S/1NT reversal after a 1H opening (1S response becomes the forcing 1NT with 1NT rebid showing 16-18 balanced, and 1NT response is forcing with 4+ spades).

Because of the load on the 1NT opening (12-15 with possible 5 card majors), you will need a more advanced response structure over the 1NT opening, and I highly recommend Keri over 1NT (from Ron Klinger's Bid Better, Much Better Over Opening 1NT)

Other inferences to draw are 1M-2m-2NT shows a strong hand. 1m opening is almost always sound (either strong balanced hand or 5 cards, with the exception of 4441 shaped hands)

[pbleighton]

I have started playing 11-14 NT (with SA, LOBs, including almost all 5M332 hands) with one partner, mostly due to things I have read in this Forum. I like it a lot - it is preemptive and solves a lot of rebid problems. However, rereading this post brings up a question:

Yzerman writes:

"There is DISTINCT advantage in major suit raise structures when playing 1m-1M-2M as 15-17 hands (15-17 dummy points)."

We play that a NT rebid by opener shows 15-17 points - if opener has 11-14 balanced he would have opned 1NT. However, what do you do after opening hands like the following after 1D-P-1H-P-?:
Qxx-AJxx-AJxxx-x (14 dummy points)
or
Qx-AJxx-AJxxx-xx (we would open this, many wouldn't)

Is your point that the minimum hand with support for responder's major after 1m-1M will always have 2 points for shortness, and you don't open with less than 13 hcp (I'm guessing this is it), or do you advocate suppressing support for partner's major with dead minimum openers?

[yapuka]

Hello,

I think the first hand (Qxx-AJxx-AJxxx-x) is worth (easily) 15 dummy points.

As for the second hand (Qx-AJxx-AJxxx-xx), if you choose to open it, then it has to be 1NT. This one is not worth 15 dummy points.

Martin

[badderzboy]

As an Acol player we use weak NT 12-14. I agree with the comments that you have to scramble sometimes but if partner's got <3pts then opps should be in game anyway.

When I started playing bridge I learned SAYC via LTPB et al and being a Brit had to learn ACOL to play at home and at first hated the weak NT especially when dbld by LHO! but it's value is in it's pre-emptive nature and immediately give's your partner the benefit of shape and value via stayman more often than with the stronger variety!

With my limited knowledge I would reply to previous question:-

However, what do you do after opening hands like the following after 1D-P-1H-P-?:
Qxx-AJxx-AJxxx-x (14 dummy points)
or
Qx-AJxx-AJxxx-xx

I would just raise to 2H (weak hand 8 card fit)
with both hands

[luis]

Hi, very interesting points, I like playing weak NT too, but lately I've been thinking if this can be improved by opening a strong NT (15-17) when Vul vrs NV. The reasons are:

a) Field protection: I don't want a preempt or a 1x lead directing bid and a jump by RHO crowding the bidding
If I open red vrs white a weak NT a good pair holding the balance of strength will realize inmediately that they are in a favorable position and double averything there's a lot to win

I'd like to know your opinions on this variation. The approach I like best is:

10-12 when white vrs red (come and get me)
15-17 when red vrs white
12-14 all red or all white

Feedback?

Luis

[pbleighton]

Luis: interesting points:

Parameters to answer your questions are:
1) System - forcing club with limited openings vs "natural" - 10-12 range makes 1NT rebid very wide ranging - or makes 1C/1D opened with 2 sometimes to differentiate 1NNT rebids.
2) IMPS vs MPs - don't care much about big penalties when doubled - it's only a bottom! Still, weak NT better NV.

Playing natural, mostly MPs with one partner, we play 11-14 all vuls. Watching it carefully - convinced it's a winner NV - not sure Vul - down 1 =100, down 2 = 200, as opposed to NV where down 1 or 2 not doubled can be a top score.

Playing Precision (openers 11-15), IMPs, just started playing 10-12 NV, 14-16 Vul. Love 10-12 range.

[the hog]

Luis this is what Bocchi Duboin play. I agree this is optimal.

[Codo]

Hi Luis,

I think that variable NT is a very good tool. I think that to have 3 (or even 4...) different ranges may be too much for "normal" partnerships. It should be superior, but I doubt, that the advantages will outscore the disadvantages in used memory, spoiled biddings etc for us mortals.
But in the pure theory and for italian gods it is best.

I for me make a compromisse and play 11-13 non.vul 1.-3. chair and 14-16 else.
Works quite well. The one HCP more compared with 10-12 makes it easier to find rebids. You don`t need to jump with 16 HCPs to 2 NT.

Kind Regards

Roland

[Codo]

Hi all,

besides all the good ideas about the weak NT.
Just now, there is the open european championship in France. In the semifinals and finals I found just pairs with STRONG NT....
Maybe something to think about...

Kind Regards

Roland

[bridgek]

Tony Sowter suggested to only play weak NT in 1st & 2nd position only, I play this for 5 years now and it works very nice.

the reasoning is that after a 1nt opening bidding is relatively easy and after a 3rd/4th hand weak notrump you lose a lot of the system(ie GF hands are non-existent). In pairs I find that you may almost never play 1NT after opening in 3 or 4, specially if opp are nv

The reason weak nt isn't played more often(and this holds true for the highest levels too) is a matter of upbringing. Most people learn to play with a strong NT, switching is not easy, you have to accept a string of bad results before you're completely familiar