[Chamaco]

Hi all !

I would like to have opinions from strong club folks about overcalled 1C sequences.

I am trying to improve our strong club overcalled respoonses.
So far we used to respond after 1C-(any natural overcall)- ?

OLD STRUCTURE

- pass = double negative (0-4 aceless) OR trap pass
- non-jump new suit= 5 + cards, 8+ hcp, gf
- non-jump NT = 8+ bal + stopper, gf
- double = semipositive, any shape, hcp varying by level:
level 1 = 5-7
level 2 = 6-8, more similar to neg double
level 3 = 7+/8+ hcp, negative double

We found that the sequence:
1C-(overcall at 1 level)-X used as simply hcp showing often leaves opener in an awkward situation, because he does not know the distribution of the doubler, especially if opps raise or jumpraise in the suit.

For this reason, I decided to look for something better, and I decided to base the new structure on the old KathyWei + Judy Radin "strong club complete", which goes more or less like this:


NEW STRUCTURE

They overcall at 1 level

- pass : 0-4/5 hcp or trap pass
- double: “low power/high power”
1) 5-8 hcp, (semi)bal takeout(“low-power”)
2) 9+ unbal or bal, no stopper (“high-power”)
- nonjump suit: 5°+ natural, 5-8 p.o., non forcing
- 1NT: 5+/8- hacp with stopper nonforcing
- jump to 2H/S : mini-weak 2 3/4-6/7 hcp, NF
- 2NT: unusual, semi positive or slammish (minimax)
- cuebid: Michaels, semipositive or slammish (different from Wei-Radin, who use it as generic slammish bid)
- 3 X: 4441 GF, various ranges and shape


They overcall at 2 level

- pass : 0-7 hcp or trap pass; it is possible to pass with 6 hcp and no biddable suit ;
- Double :
1) 8+ hcp, GF
2) 7/8 p.o. bal, invitational to 3NT
- new suit at 2 level: 5°+, 5-8 p.o., NF
- new suit at 3 level(even jumpbid): good suit 5°+, 8+ hcp, GF
- 2NT: Unusual, semipositive or slammish
- cuebid: Michaels, semipositive or slammish
- 3 NT: 9-11 bal + stopper


(I skip bids after 3 level overcalls because for lack of bidding space more or less all the systems resort to similar structure)



Now, according to this structure, I'd like advices to handle the bidding when opps jump raise preemptively the overcalled (natural) suit after responder's double.



FINALLY, HERE ARE THE QUESTIONS !!! :-)

1) 1C-(1H)-X-(2H)
?
Now:
a. Is double responsive ? (shows majors if they bid the minor or the minors if they bid the major)
b. does X show the spades ? remeber that double could come from a GF hand without spades
c. if I bid 2 spades am I showing a 4+ or a 5+ card suit ?
d. does pass deny spades ? does pass deny another suit ?
e. what is the right bid if interested in penalty ?

The same questions apply to the jump raise:
2) 1C-(1H)-X-(3H)
?
Now:
a. Is double responsive ? (shows majors if they bid the minor or the minors if they bid the major)
b. does X show the spades ? remeber that double could come from a GF hand without spades
c. if I bid 3 spades am I showing a 4+ or a 5+ card suit ?
d. does pass deny spades ? does pass deny another suit ?
e. what is the right bid if interested in penalty ?

[pclayton]

Chamaco, on Jan 4 2005, 05:52 PM, said:

FINALLY, HERE ARE THE QUESTIONS !!! :-)

1) 1C-(1H)-X-(2H)
?
Now:
a. Is double responsive ? (shows majors if they bid the minor or the minors if they bid the major)
b. does X show the spades ? remeber that double could come from a GF hand without spades
c. if I bid 2 spades am I showing a 4+ or a 5+ card suit ?
d. does pass deny spades ? does pass deny another suit ?
e. what is the right bid if interested in penalty ?

The same questions apply to the jump raise:
2) 1C-(1H)-X-(3H)
?
Now:
a. Is double responsive ? (shows majors if they bid the minor or the minors if they bid the major)
b. does X show the spades ? remeber that double could come from a GF hand without spades
c. if I bid 3 spades am I showing a 4+ or a 5+ card suit ?
d. does pass deny spades ? does pass deny another suit ?
e. what is the right bid if interested in penalty ?[/color]

1a) 1st - PASS shows your strong NT and all NT systems should be on by responder; Rubensohl, etc..

a) Dbl is responsive; typically 4 of unbid major
B ) Yes
c) Should be 5+; but specify what a 3S call would mean
d) Pass should deny spades, yes
e) Pass and wait for pard's double.


2a: Yes; but double starts to lean towards card showing, rather than responsive
B ) Not necessarily
c) 5+
d) no and no
e) With a stack, pass - of course its a forcing auction.

By the way, you didn't specify a cue bid over the 2 and 3 level raises. Personally, I like it to be NATURAL - exposing the psyche. You are dreaming if you think that you are nailing them here; they'll run for the hills.

[Chamaco]

pclayton, on Jan 5 2005, 02:00 AM, said:

By the way, you didn't specify a cue bid over the 2 and 3 level raises. Personally, I like it to be NATURAL - exposing the psyche. You are dreaming if you think that you are nailing them here; they'll run for the hills.

Peter, ty very much for your suggestions !!!!

One further question on this cuebid issue:

1) after the double by responder, auction is not *yet* GF, it is possible that he's got a *low power* double (semipositive, about 5-7, bal. shape "à la neg double" ), so I need a GF bid;
2) if the cuebid is natural to expose the psyche, how do you start a slammish investigation ? (pass then bid later could backfire, because we are not in a real GF)

Thanks !!

[mike777]

Lot of issues here, a few alternative choices:

pass=fewer than 6HCP.
X by responder =6+hcp and 0-2 controls.
next step =3 controls etc.
1nt=4-6 HCP and a stopper
2d-2s=weak 0-6 HCP, 6 cards and at most one of top 3 honors
3c+, etc. 7 cards
cuebid=good 5-5 or better deny 3 controls/ game force
2nt=0-2 controls, but game force 3 suiter

Pass by strong club hand=16-17 or your minimum 1nt rebid range.
2nt= 18-19 or your maximum 1nt rebid range
Often these overcalls are psyches or very garbage suits or totally artificial, in general now:
X in direct seat by strong club hand is penalty or leans towards penalty.
X in balance seat by strong club tends toward takeout.

Rebid X by responder in direct seats tends toward penalty, in balance seat, takeout.

[Chamaco]

mike777, on Jan 5 2005, 02:23 AM, said:

Lot of issues here, a few alternative choices:

pass=fewer than 6HCP.
X by responder =6+hcp and 0-2 controls.
next step =3 controls etc.
1nt=4-6 HCP and a stopper
2d-2s=weak 0-6 HCP, 6 cards and at most one of top 3 honors
3c+, etc. 7 cards
cuebid=good 5-5 or better deny 3 controls
2nt=0-2 controls, but game force 3 suiter

Pass by strong club hand=16-17 or your minimum 1nt rebid  range.
2nt= 18-19 or your maximum 1nt rebid range
Often these overcalls are psyches or very garbage suits or totally artificial, in general now:
X in direct seat by strong club hand is penalty or leans towards penalty.
X in balance seat by strong club tends toward takeout.

Rebid X by responder in direct seats tends toward penalty, in balance seat, takeout.

Hi Mike !!
Thanks for the contribution too

However, while I am quickly converting to control-showing responses to 1C in UNCONTESTED AUCTION, I still feel that in CONTESTED AUCTIONS distributional info start to become more important (maybe it's just my lack of experience, it might be as well that in a few month I'll think otherwise... ).

[pclayton]

Hi Mauro - name is "Phil", not Peter.

Lets say your 1N opening is 14-16. Pass over the 2♥ raise would basically show the flat 17-19.

Another sequence that you did not bring up is a 2N overcall over their 2♥ raise. This can be played as good/bad; or as a balanced 20+ UP. If good/bad, you are using 2N to differentiate between: ♠Ax, ♥Kx, ♦AQTxxx, ♣Kxx.....AND ♠AKx, ♥Kxx, ♦AKQTxx, ♣x or the like.

To start a slam suggestion, just bid a new suit; a cue bid is counter-productive. You can double to show a hand short in hearts and no specific place to play. If pard passes, it should be with a very good trump stack.

The key to these auctions isn't to nail them every time they stick their neck out (although it occasionally happens); its to find our fit and level.

[mike777]

Good point. This structure is for overcalls below 2D. Please note with 0-2 controls, most hands, you are bidding many types of dist hands or if not then denying them with an X

[Chamaco]

pclayton, on Jan 5 2005, 02:29 AM, said:

Hi Mauro - name is "Phil", not Peter.

Sorry Phil

Would you suggest for/against 4m being "Leaping/NonLeaping Michaels" in minimum hand, in both auctions ?

[whereagles]

Mauro, do you have Rigal's book on precision? There's a chapter of "advanced methods" after 1C is overcalled with very good new ideas.

[Chamaco]

whereagles, on Jan 5 2005, 02:59 PM, said:

Mauro, do you have Rigal's book on precision? There's a chapter of "advanced methods" after 1C is overcalled with very good new ideas.

Ok, I'll check it out again, I lended it to my teammates :-)

[pclayton]

Chamaco, on Jan 5 2005, 04:42 AM, said:

pclayton, on Jan 5 2005, 02:29 AM, said:

Hi Mauro - name is "Phil", not Peter.

Sorry Phil

Would you suggest for/against 4m being "Leaping/NonLeaping Michaels" in minimum hand, in both auctions ?

Never thought about it, but near the end of my strong club partnership a few months ago, we finally discovered the need to get disclose 5-5's at lower levels in non-competitive sequences. Leaping Michaels could very well help facilitate these in crowded auctions. I'd stipulate that the call should be a minimum hand however, becuase it uses so much space.

[luis]

My recomendation when your strong club is overcalled:

Use pass as 0-4 or 12+
Use Double as 8/11 GF
Use the other bids as 5/7 in transfer.

This maximizes the usage of every bid and allows competition when you have 5 to 7 HCP.

Luis

[Chamaco]

luis, on Jan 5 2005, 06:37 PM, said:

My recomendation when your strong club is overcalled:

Use pass as 0-4 or 12+
Use Double as 8/11 GF
Use the other bids as 5/7 in transfer.

This maximizes the usage of every bid and allows competition when you have 5 to 7 HCP.

Luis

Hi Luis !
Ty and happy new year !!

One question: the use of minimax pass (0-4/12+) works fine with 1 level overcalls.

But I have a problem when opps overcall at 2 level:
we use variable 1NT opening range, so when our NT is 10-12 (and not 14-16), our minimum 1C balanced opener il 16-18/19.

Now assume I have a balanced 16 and I open 1C.

QJ8x- Ax- KQx- ATxx
Bidding goes:

1C-(2S)-pass-pass
?

Now, I cannot pass because my pard could have the 12+ hand: so I have to bid.
But my hand is too offshape to double (pard will bid Hearts), and do I really want to bid 2NT opposite a 0-4 hand ?

[luis]

Chamaco, on Jan 5 2005, 07:17 PM, said:

luis, on Jan 5 2005, 06:37 PM, said:

My recomendation when your strong club is overcalled:

Use pass as 0-4 or 12+
Use Double as 8/11 GF
Use the other bids as 5/7 in transfer.

This maximizes the usage of every bid and allows competition when you have 5 to 7 HCP.

Luis

Hi Luis !
Ty and happy new year !!

One question: the use of minimax pass (0-4/12+) works fine with 1 level overcalls.

But I have a problem when opps overcall at 2 level:
we use variable 1NT opening range, so when our NT is 10-12 (and not 14-16), our minimum 1C balanced opener il 16-18/19.

Now assume I have a balanced 16 and I open 1C.

QJ8x- Ax- KQx- ATxx
Bidding goes:

1C-(2S)-pass-pass
?

Now, I cannot pass because my pard could have the 12+ hand: so I have to bid.
But my hand is too offshape to double (pard will bid Hearts), and do I really want to bid 2NT opposite a 0-4 hand ?

Think it in this way:
Had LHO opened 2s in 1st position what would you have done in 4th? And bid the same. It's strange but adds a lot of flexibility.

[Chamaco]

luis, on Jan 5 2005, 07:30 PM, said:

Chamaco said:

Now assume I have a balanced 16 and I open 1C.

QJ8x- Ax- KQx- ATxx
Bidding goes:

1C-(2S)-pass-pass
?

Now, I cannot pass because my pard could have the 12+ hand: so I have to bid.
But my hand is too offshape to double (pard will bid Hearts), and do I really want to bid 2NT opposite a 0-4 hand ?

Think it in this way:
Had LHO opened 2s in 1st position what would you have done in 4th? And bid the same. It's strange but adds a lot of flexibility.

Luis, I think the 2 situations are quite different, because the bidding of RHO benefits from the extra infos of me opening 16+ AND my pard's pass being forcing even if the hand is 0-4, so even if RHO passes he will have an extra chance to bid (and likely double):

1. when I balance over a first seat weak 2, I have much more chances to find useful hcp in my pard's hand.

2. When instead I balance after opening 1C and hearing from pard a weak/strong pass, I expect him to have the weak hand many more times.

Also, my RHO may as well have passed holding a good hand in misfit which did not want to bid over his pard weak jump;
what's more, if opps know that our methods force me to rebid, RHO may be sitting to double me.

I agree of treating the 1C-(wjo)-pass-pass situation as similar to balancing over a weak 2, *if I have shortness in their suit*;but length in opps suit is often a danger sign.
When I balance over a weak 2, if I have the wrong shape, I passout and do not bid 2NT unless I have extra hcp (where "extra" is meant in the bidding context).

[Cascade]

1♣ (1♥) ?

Here I would like to play:

X = values to compete at this level with no clear direction (negative double when partner has shown no suit) OR
Strong but not distributional - double then freely bid new suit is forcing

new suit = natural NF - semi-positive

1NT = natural NF

cue = distributional takeout - Michaels style or maybe strong one-suiter

jump new suit = natural Force unless these are included in the cue

2/3NT = natural (maybe not both needed in a strong club system)

1♣ (1♥) X (2♥) ?

In this seat I play a very similar structure

X = fairly standard takeout (depends on agreement for 2♠) OR very strong but not too distributional (don't want to risk partner passing)

2NT = natural NF

new suit = natural NF - 2♠ could be four depending on agreements. Partner said he could cope with you bidding spades when he doubles 1♥ so I would be happy playing this as a four-card suit below game.

cue = stopper ask normally a strong single-suited minor hand

jump new suit = forcing and too distributional to double

3NT = to play - extras and not needing to investigate alternative contracts like a major suit fit.

4♣/♦ = leaping Michaels

1♣ (1♥) X (3♥) ?

Again this situation is a similar structure

X = takeout fairly standard (depends on agreement for 3♠) or any strong

3♠ = four or five depending on agreement

3NT = to play

4♣/♦ = non-leaping Michaels - this is a losing bid with minor one-suiters in my experience. Minor one-suiters have three choices - 3NT, X (partner might show a stopper) or jump to 5minor.

cue = maybe strong distributional one-suiter in spades

4♠ = one suited

[Chamaco]

Maybe some of the posters here missed another post related to this:

http://forums.bridgebase.com/ind...?showtopic=6030

The questions are quite similar, but the situation is related to cases where pard doubles and RHO passes (e.g. pass is an option only if we want to go for penalty).

I would greatly appreciate your feedback for that specific case: the replies I got in this thread helped me very much to focus the scheme, I am sure your contribution will be very helpful also for the other specific topic !!