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Suit Combinations Contribute a Suit Comination

#21 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2005-January-04, 16:03

Quote

Needing four trinck in a suit combination...

K9xx
AJxx

Correct play is king then low to the jack.


Uh .... no it isn't.

Correct play is low to the jack, then the ace. Cashing the K first (the correct maneuver for 4 tricks when the hands are Kxxx, AJ9x) still loses a trick to T87x on the right. low to the J will save you if RHO has the stiff Q.
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#22 User is offline   HeartA 

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Posted 2005-January-04, 16:13

Stephen Tu, on Jan 4 2005, 05:03 PM, said:

Quote

Needing four trinck in a suit combination...

K9xx
AJxx

Correct play is king then low to the jack.


Uh .... no it isn't.

Correct play is low to the jack, then the ace. Cashing the K first (the correct maneuver for 4 tricks when the hands are Kxxx, AJ9x) still loses a trick to T87x on the right. low to the J will save you if RHO has the stiff Q.

Stephen is right. That is what I was going to say. But busy in doing fred's question, still missed one :(
Senshu
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#23 User is offline   jahol 

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Posted 2005-January-04, 16:23

Regarding second case from Fred, I think that any idea about finessing ten is just illusion. With 3-3 distribution of opponents cards, the choice is irrelevant. With 4-2 or 5-1, the only chance is to play RHO for dubleton 10 or singleton 10, respectively.
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#24 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2005-January-04, 16:27

fred, on Jan 4 2005, 04:53 PM, said:

Here is another one I like:

J9876

32

You need 2 tricks.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com


low to jack...picks up Tx on right, or stiff ten...loses to Tx onside... stiff T or HT dub onside would always be picked up by leading up to dummy to the J9
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#25 User is offline   jahol 

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Posted 2005-January-04, 16:29

Yes, that was the point!
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#26 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2005-January-04, 16:30

well its not the ONLY chance, you could play for Tx onside, that is just inferior
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#27 User is offline   Flame 

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Posted 2005-January-04, 16:43

Jlall, on Jan 4 2005, 05:30 PM, said:

well its not the ONLY chance, you could play for Tx onside, that is just inferior

Exactly, this is because 10 sgl onside shouldnt be taken into consideration while 10 sgl ofside is
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#28 User is offline   HeartA 

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Posted 2005-January-04, 17:17

Quote

You guys need to play against better opponents...

RHO with QT, QTx or stiff Queen will play the queen when you lead low from dummy. It is automatic. So sure, you pick up T876 versus singelton Queen, but you lose to
876 opposite QT,
87 opposite QT6
86 opposite QT7
78 opposite QT8

I wonder, really, which is better odds? hmm... your opponent will have a story to tell for quite some time, thank you very much. I am taking the real percentage play of king then small to the JACK, when needing four tricks.

Ben


I don't understand, Ben. How do I loss in those cases? When Q appears, I cover with Ace, then cash Jack to confirm. When it is 3-2, I don't loss. If RHO shows out, I make the marked finesse.
Senshu
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#29 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2005-January-04, 17:58

HeartA, on Jan 4 2005, 07:17 PM, said:

Quote

You guys need to play against better opponents...

RHO with QT, QTx or stiff Queen will play the queen when you lead low from dummy. It is automatic. So sure, you pick up T876 versus singelton Queen, but you lose to
876 opposite QT,
87 opposite QT6
86 opposite QT7
78 opposite QT8

I wonder, really, which is better odds? hmm... your opponent will have a story to tell for quite some time, thank you very much. I am taking the real percentage play of king then small to the JACK, when needing four tricks.

Ben


I don't understand, Ben. How do I loss in those cases? When Q appears, I cover with Ace, then cash Jack to confirm. When it is 3-2, I don't loss. If RHO shows out, I make the marked finesse.

My bad.. one shouldn't drink on an empty stomack......
--Ben--

#30 User is offline   fred 

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Posted 2005-January-04, 18:42

Congratulations to several of you for working out that with:

J9876

32

You should play low to the J (as this picks up 10x and 10 offside, while low to the 9 picks up 10x onside).

I like this combination because the right play is so counter-intuitive (at least to me).

Your next assignment:

KQ10987

32

You can afford to lose only 1 trick.

This one is harder than the other combinations that have been posted in this thread so far.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com
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#31 User is offline   luke warm 

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Posted 2005-January-04, 19:02

fred said:

KQ10987

32

You can afford to lose only 1 trick


it seems to me that if you play for the honors to split you have no problem, just lead toward the K or Q... so that can't be right :(

leading to the K wins anytime the A is right... i think i'd go ahead and play against the only bad split i can do something about, AJx(x)(x) under the K,Q... low to the 10

fred said:

Void

AQ108765

You can afford to lose 2 tricks


on this one since i can lose 2 tricks i think i'd lead a low spade then the Q, hoping to fork the J or 9 doubleton next time
"Paul Krugman is a stupid person's idea of what a smart person sounds like." Newt Gingrich (paraphrased)
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#32 User is offline   Flame 

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Posted 2005-January-04, 19:17

Ok i play to the K, and later to the Q wather the K hold or not.
explaining
If the K is taken by the A. Now the post chances of playing Q10 opposite x when 3 cards are missing is to the 10, but i think this is wrong here, to the 10 loses to AJ offside, to the Q loses to Ax offside (both loses to AJx offside) but resticted choice tells us to play to the Q, because with Ax east might have ducked while with AJ he couldnt.
If the K took the trick playing to the 10 will lose only to Jx offside, while playing to the Q will lose only to Ax offside, same thereticasl chances but there are two clues to play to the Q, the first, with Ax east might have played the A while with Jx he must play small.
Second a hiddlen clue if east know my analysing that if he win the A i should play to the K based on restricted choice, then with Ax he should take the A, so when he doesnt take it gives another a clue that he doesnt have it.
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#33 User is offline   fred 

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Posted 2005-January-04, 19:34

I'm not going to answer the KQ10987 opposite 32 problem right away (in fact I may wait for a few days), but here are some general comments about suit combinations:

First of all, don't draw this (incorrect) inference:

Fred is good at suit combinations.

Fred is a successful tournament player.

Therefore being good at suit combinations is a necessary condition for being a successful tournament player.

This is 100% not true. The vast majority of successful tournament players don't know their suit combinations very well (though some of them are capable of figuring them out at the table). Also, there are plenty of people who know their suit combinations inside out, but have never won anything big.

The fact of the matter is that being able to solve these problems (or memorizing the answers to a lot of them) is of very limited practical importance. There are several reasons why this is true:

- Bridge deals in which pure suit combination problems arise are rare. In almost all deals factors like entries, inferences from the bidding (or lack thereof), inferences from the opening lead or early defense, the possibility that a defender might make a mistake or fail to find a "mandatory falsecard" impact the odds.

- Even when such deals occur, the difference between the 2 best lines of play is often no more than 2% or so. Making a reasonable play, even if it is not the best play, will usually be good enough.

- The time and energy it takes to solve these problems at the table will take away from the other (more important) aspects of your game.

- The rest of the field doesn't know how to solve these problems either.

That being said, I personally find the study of suit combinations to be fascinating and I believe that the time I have spent trying to solve these problems in my head has helped to make me a better bridge player. This is not so much because of the knowledge I have gained, but because the excercise itself has made me better at "thinking about bridge problems".

In my entire bridge career I can think of only 1 deal in which being a "expert at suit combinations" had a significant impact on my results in a major tournament. I have written about the deal in question before, but I will mention it again in some future installment in this thread.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com
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#34 User is offline   Yzerman 

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Posted 2005-January-04, 19:49

Here is one that come up 2 times in same day.


hand AQ108x ..... dummy xxx

Suit is trumps, both time IMPs, entries to dummy not a problem ...

a - 1st time - for 4 winners

b - 2nd time - for 5 winners
MAL
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#35 User is offline   Flame 

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Posted 2005-January-04, 20:17

Yzerman, on Jan 4 2005, 08:49 PM, said:

Here is one that come up 2 times in same day.


hand AQ108x ..... dummy xxx

Suit is trumps, both time IMPs, entries to dummy not a problem ...

a -  1st time - for 4 winners

b -  2nd time - for 5 winners

To make 5, play to the 10, and later to the Q to catch KJ(X) onside
To make 4 play to the Q first and to the 10 later. The improvent of this is that if east has J sgl, it will droped under the Q and you wont lose more then 1 trick now, while if you played to the 10, you would lose another trick to the K9xx onside.
while if east has K sgl, playing the first 10 wont help you more then playing the Q.
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#36 User is offline   HeartA 

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Posted 2005-January-04, 20:50

Flame, on Jan 4 2005, 09:17 PM, said:

To make 5, play to the 10, and later to the Q to catch KJ(X) onside
To make 4 play to the Q first and to the 10 later. The improvent of this is that if east has J sgl, it will droped under the Q and you wont lose more then 1 trick now, while if you played to the 10, you would lose another trick to the K9xx onside.
while if east has K sgl, playing the first 10 wont help you more then playing the Q.

To make 4 tricks, you cash Ace first, which guards against singleton King (and J) and KJ doubleton off-side. Then from hand to dummy, covering whatever LHO plays.
Senshu
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#37 User is offline   Flame 

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Posted 2005-January-04, 20:54

HeartA, on Jan 4 2005, 09:50 PM, said:

Flame, on Jan 4 2005, 09:17 PM, said:

To make 5, play to the 10, and later to the Q to catch KJ(X) onside
To make 4 play to the Q first and to the 10 later. The improvent of this is that if east has J sgl, it will droped under the Q and you wont lose more then 1 trick now, while if you played to the 10, you would lose another trick to the K9xx onside.
while if east has K sgl, playing the first 10 wont help you more then playing the Q.

To make 4 tricks, you cash Ace first, which guards against singleton King (and J) and KJ doubleton off-side. Then from hand to dummy, covering whatever LHO plays.

And you will lose to Jx offside, i think/feel its not worth it, but i didnt check.
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#38 User is offline   HeartA 

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Posted 2005-January-04, 21:29

Flame, on Jan 4 2005, 09:54 PM, said:

And you will lose to Jx offside, i think/feel its not worth it, but i didnt check.

That is the only case you might loss. but there is a chance RHO hopped with King. Or you decided to play Queen for some reason.
Senshu
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#39 User is offline   Yzerman 

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Posted 2005-January-04, 21:31

Yzerman, on Jan 5 2005, 01:49 AM, said:

Here is one that come up 2 times in same day.


hand AQ108x ..... dummy xxx

Suit is trumps, both time IMPs, entries to dummy not a problem ...

a -  1st time - for 4 winners

b -  2nd time - for 5 winners

The "book" says;

4 winners - Low to Q, then low to 10 (when Q holds) - picks up any Kx, Jx, 9x, KJx, K9x, KJ9, 9, J, or K onside and stiff 9 or J offisde and loses only to stiff King offside.

5 winners - Low to 10 then low to Q (assuming 10 holds) - picks up KJx onside.
MAL
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#40 User is offline   HeartA 

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Posted 2005-January-04, 21:34

Yzerman, on Jan 4 2005, 10:31 PM, said:

4 winners - Low to Q, then low to 10 (when Q holds)  -  picks up any Kx, Jx, 9x, KJx, K9x, KJ9, 9, J, or K onside and stiff 9 or J offisde and loses only to stiff King offside.


It losses to KJ doubleton as well.
Senshu
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