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4th Seat T/O Double versus Sandwich NT What exactly is the difference?

#1 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2013-May-07, 06:45

You are the player sitting in 4th seat, and witness an auction such as this one -
1-(P)-1-?
You have a biddable hand containing the two unbid suits and some values.

So here's the question(s):
1. When do you make a t/o X for the two unbid suits?
2. When do you make a Sandwich NT overcall for the two unbid suits?
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#2 User is offline   Antrax 

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Posted 2013-May-07, 06:51

Personally, as a passed hand (don't play Sandwich NT otherwise), X shows more defense than 1NT shows less shape than 2NT. Warning: might not be optimal.
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#3 User is offline   Siegmund 

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Posted 2013-May-07, 09:07

My habit is to use 1NT with 4 spades and 5 or more diamonds, possibly fairly weak, 2NT with a weak 5-5, and double with 4-4s of appropriate strength (and, as I mentioned in another thread, allow our side to play in clubs after the double.)
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#4 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2013-May-07, 10:09

View PostSiegmund, on 2013-May-07, 09:07, said:

My habit is to use 1NT with 4 spades and 5 or more diamonds, possibly fairly weak,

How does that work out in practice ---bypassing the spade suit yet showing exactly four of them when weak?
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#5 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2013-May-07, 15:38

View PostAntrax, on 2013-May-07, 06:51, said:

Personally, as a passed hand (don't play Sandwich NT otherwise), X shows more defense than 1NT shows less shape than 2NT. Warning: might not be optimal.

:blink: Huh?
Maybe someone can decipher what was actually said here?
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#6 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2013-May-07, 15:45

View PostSiegmund, on 2013-May-07, 09:07, said:

My habit is to use 1NT with 4 spades and 5 or more diamonds, possibly fairly weak, 2NT with a weak 5-5, and double with 4-4s of appropriate strength (and, as I mentioned in another thread, allow our side to play in clubs after the double.)

This can work. To summarise how I understand this:
1. Double = 4/4 in the two unbid suits
2. 1NT = 4-cards in the other major and 5-cards in the other minor
3. 2NT = 5/5 in the two unbid suits

With 5-cards in the other major and 4 in the other minor you just make a normal overcall. The actual length in the unbid minor is supressed, but that's ok. You've managed to get a bid in consuming some of the opponents bidding space.
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#7 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2013-May-07, 18:39

View Post32519, on 2013-May-07, 15:38, said:

:blink: Huh?
Maybe someone can decipher what was actually said here?

Antrax is describing his passed-hand methods, because his (our) unpassed-hand methods call for a strong-balanced sandwich position notrump. In that context, what he said was clear. Double is less distributional than cue or 2nt.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#8 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2013-May-07, 19:01

View Post32519, on 2013-May-07, 06:45, said:

2. When do you make a Sandwich NT overcall for the two unbid suits?


Never (as an unpassed hand). I think that this is a significantly majority viewpoint.
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#9 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2013-May-07, 19:02

I like double as a sound takeout of responder's suit, with 1nt being a lighter takeout for the unbids.
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
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#10 User is offline   Antrax 

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Posted 2013-May-07, 21:41

View Post32519, on 2013-May-07, 15:38, said:

:blink: Huh?
Maybe someone can decipher what was actually said here?
Sorry, I thought it was clear.
0. We only play Sandwich NT by a passed hand. If that's the case then:
1. Double is a hand with more defense than 1NT.
2. 1NT shows less shape than 2NT, which is still unusual in that position.
In essence, double tells your partner: "you can compete but feel free to leave this with a trump stack, or double them later in the auction". 1NT tells your partner: "let's get our 8 card fit in the 2-level and then shut up". 2NT tells your partner: "if you have a fit, let's go nuts". It's gross oversimplification, but that's the spirit of things.
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#11 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2013-May-08, 00:00

View Postaguahombre, on 2013-May-07, 18:39, said:

Antrax is describing his passed-hand methods, because his (our) unpassed-hand methods call for a strong-balanced sandwich position notrump. In that context, what he said was clear. Double is less distributional than cue or 2nt.

What do you mean by a strong-balanced sandwich position? How strong is "strong?" And if you are strong why did you pass initially? Where and how does the Michaels/Unusual 2NT combination fit into your bidding agreements if you bid this way?
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#12 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2013-May-08, 00:06

View PostVampyr, on 2013-May-07, 19:01, said:

Never (as an unpassed hand). I think that this is a significantly majority viewpoint.

So then I must assume that the significant majority viewpoint will always make a t/o X for the two unbid suits. Does that mean we can discard the sandwich NT bid to the junk pile along with my other pet hates?
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#13 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2013-May-08, 00:07

View PostAntrax, on 2013-May-07, 21:41, said:

Sorry, I thought it was clear.
0. We only play Sandwich NT by a passed hand. If that's the case then:
1. Double is a hand with more defense than 1NT.
2. 1NT shows less shape than 2NT, which is still unusual in that position.
In essence, double tells your partner: "you can compete but feel free to leave this with a trump stack, or double them later in the auction". 1NT tells your partner: "let's get our 8 card fit in the 2-level and then shut up". 2NT tells your partner: "if you have a fit, let's go nuts". It's gross oversimplification, but that's the spirit of things.

See my reply to aguahombre.
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#14 User is offline   Antrax 

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Posted 2013-May-08, 01:03

(1x)-p-(1y)-
1NT is our NT overcall, so 15(+)-18, expected to stop both suits (but if x is a minor, might just have length).
2y is natural, so 5+ decent suit.
2x is an ill-defined "general force". Probably should be something else. Undiscussed by a passed hand.
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#15 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2013-May-08, 03:47

View Post32519, on 2013-May-08, 00:00, said:

What do you mean by a strong-balanced sandwich position? How strong is "strong?" And if you are strong why did you pass initially? Where and how does the Michaels/Unusual 2NT combination fit into your bidding agreements if you bid this way?

Unpassed hands have not passed originally. I think I shall bow out.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#16 User is offline   PhilKing 

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Posted 2013-May-08, 04:19

View Post32519, on 2013-May-08, 00:06, said:

Does that mean we can discard the sandwich NT bid to the junk pile along with my other pet hates?


Technically, discarded sandwiches should be recycled rather than put on the junk pile.
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#17 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2013-May-08, 05:35

View PostPhilKing, on 2013-May-08, 04:19, said:

Technically, discarded sandwiches should be recycled rather than put on the junk pile.


Composting worms and chickens appreciate them, so that would be pet likes rather than pet hates.
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#18 User is offline   PhilKing 

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Posted 2013-May-08, 05:41

View Postsfi, on 2013-May-08, 05:35, said:

Composting worms and chickens appreciate them, so that would be pet likes rather than pet hates.


I wouldn't give a chicken a chicken sandwich, but that's just me.
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#19 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2013-May-08, 05:46

View PostPhilKing, on 2013-May-08, 05:41, said:

I wouldn't give a chicken a chicken sandwich, but that's just me.


True enough - they might get ideas.
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#20 User is offline   Siegmund 

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Posted 2013-May-08, 09:13

Quote

How does that work out in practice ---bypassing the spade suit yet showing exactly four of them when weak?


Better than overcalling 2 of a minor and losing the major forever does. Not necessarily better than doubling - but the auction is never (or almost never, depending on opponents' methods) ending in 1 of our major anyway, so the inability to stop in 1S isn't really a worry.
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