[yunling]

---

Seems that some better tools is needed.

[Cyberyeti]

There are several ways to handle this, one is to transfer to clubs then be able to bid hearts naturally.

This is a difficult grand to bid. It needs south to know N has 5 clubs, 4 hearts and the ♠AK (but normally N will do the asking), or N to know that S is 2-3 not 3-2 in the pointies.

The only sequence I can think of that gets there is slightly fanciful but not stupid (I think in reality N would ask aces with 4♠ rather than cue):

1N-2♠(♣)
2N(Kxx♣ or better)-3♥(nat)
4♥-4N(♠cue)
5♦(cue, no need to cue A♣ as I showed it earlier)-5♠(cue)
5N(interested in grand but unsure)-7♥(Q♥ and Q♣ make this clear)

Being able to bid the grand opposite the actual S hand but not opposite Qx, KJxx, AJx, AJxx is really tough. S has the limited hand and has a fitting minimum, so it's difficult for him to take control which is the easiest way to find out what is necessary.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

yunling, on 2013-April-27, 02:42, said:

---

Seems that some better tools is needed.

When using the Baze convention, which uses 4C!= RKC when a 4-4 Major fit is found, finding the grand might be possible . You will find all the key cards and NO side K at 5H -- a full bidding level lower :

1NT - 2C
2H - 4C!
4D ( 0/3 ) - 4S ( K-ask; specific replies )
5H ( none ) - ?? perhaps 5S = Q-ask; specific replies
??
.. 5NT = ♠Q which would give the grand if Q x x; does not apply here
.. 6C = ♣ Q ; does not apply here
.. 6D = ♦ Q , denying ♠ and ♣ Q's
........ you know there is a 50% chance for the grand on just the ♦finesse alone .

Bid the 7H grand ( there might be another chance somewhere )

[yunling]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-April-27, 07:53, said:

Even when using the Baze convention, which uses 4C!= RKC when a 4-4 Major fit is found, finding the grand might be possible . You will find all the key cards and NO side K at 5H -- a full bidding level lower :

1NT - 2C
2H - 4C!
4D ( 0/3 ) - 4S ( K-ask; specific replies )
5H ( none ) - ?? perhaps 5S = Q-ask; specific replies
??
.. 5NT = ♠Q which would give the grand if Q x x; does not apply here
.. 6C = ♣ Q ; does not apply here
.. 6D = ♦ Q , denying ♠ and ♣ Q's
........ you know there is a 50% chance for the grand on just the ♦finesse alone .

Bid the 7H grand ( there might be another chance somewhere )

I did know p has either DQ or SQ to make up his 15 count in the shown auction, but I wonder if it is enough for a grand.

[awm]

After the keycard bid, north knows south holds four ♥ to K, ♦A, ♣A. If the clubs play for five tricks that's 5♣+4♥+2♠+1♦+a ruff = 13. Of course, it's possible clubs won't play for five tricks (say south has Ax of club only) but south also owes quite a few more high cards. I think north should just go for it.

[keylime]

yunling, on 2013-April-27, 02:42, said:

---

Seems that some better tools is needed.

1NT - sound.
Stayman - yep.
2H - normal.

I used to use 3 of the other major as an artificial slam try asking for cooperation. Then cuebids direct you into slam.

[Antrax]

How do cue bids steer you away from the grand if S holds Cyberyeti's example hand?

[Cyberyeti]

Antrax, on 2013-April-28, 00:19, said:

How do cue bids steer you away from the grand if S holds Cyberyeti's example hand?

If you have Two4's level of sophistication, you know the grand is at least 50% and may be cold, otherwise distinguishing between the hand I gave and the actual hand is really tough.

[Antrax]

Yeah, sorry, I was asking keylime. I also have 3OM as forcing raise and cue bids and all that, and still would have to guess between 6 and 7.

[Cyberyeti]

Antrax, on 2013-April-28, 02:37, said:

Yeah, sorry, I was asking keylime. I also have 3OM as forcing raise and cue bids and all that, and still would have to guess between 6 and 7.

I was sort of answering that, if you can go down to asking for Qs, you can get a good idea, but simple AK cues are pretty difficult. You have to do the sort of thing that I gave as my first sequence but in practice you ask for keys to ensure the small slam is solid and don't bid the grand.

[Antrax]

I guess it depends on how you cue:
1NT-2♣
2♥-3♠
4♣
For me opener denied a ♠ control. Now responder has the ♠ control but not the ♦ control. Probably 4♦ should be last train and show this, but if it's not, then I guess you have to cue 4♠, and then you're again stuck - should opener bid 5♦ to confirm the ♦ control? Now responder can't show his ♣K lower than the 6-level, and there's just no room to show queens.
I'm sure there are cue bidding styles that can overcome this, which is why I asked keylime how he'd do.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-April-28, 02:13, said:

If you have Two4's level of sophistication, you know the grand is at least 50% and may be cold, otherwise distinguishing between the hand I gave and the actual hand is really tough.

Using OP's 4S! as RKC, you could get to a low-level side-suit Q-ask ( similar to my post # 3 ) if RKC replies were 03 14 ... instead of 14 30 ...

1NT - 2C
2H - 4S!
4NT ( 0/3 ) - 5D ( 2nd step is K-ask ; 5C would be trump Q-ask )
5H ( no K ) - 5S could now ask for outside Q's

[aguahombre]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-April-28, 09:47, said:

Using OP's 4S! as RKC, you could get to a low-level side-suit Q-ask ( similar to my post # 3 ) if RKC replies were 03 14 ... instead of 14 30 ...

1NT - 2C
2H - 4S!
4NT ( 0/3 ) - 5D ( 2nd step is K-ask ; 5C would be trump Q-ask )
5H ( no K ) - 5S could now ask for outside Q's

It could, but for us it would be specific in a Grand try, wanting 3rd round control of spades. Here, the deck and the NT opening tell us South has either the spade or diamond queen. We don't care which it is.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

aguahombre, on 2013-April-28, 10:02, said:

It could, but for us it would be specific in a Grand try, wanting 3rd round control of spades. Here, the deck and the NT opening tell us South has either the spade or diamond queen. We don't care which it is.

there is enough room for both:
5S could still be the outside Q-ask ,
and
5NT, 6C, 6D = 3rd Rnd Ctrl-Ask ( ♠, ♣, ♦ respectively ) .

[aguahombre]

My point was to just bid 7, and not worry about whether opener has one queen or two.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

aguahombre, on 2013-April-28, 13:36, said:

My point was to just bid 7, and not worry about whether opener has one queen or two.

Agree... that odds are he has a Q .... and not the 2 other Jacks instead of a Q .

[aguahombre]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-April-28, 13:40, said:

Agree... that odds are he has a Q .... and not the 2 other Jacks instead of a Q .

And, in this case, I like my chances if he has no queen at all.

[Zelandakh]

For those that play Baze, or indeed any other of the variations that do not allow for cue bidding, how do you see the auction going if Opener has QJ/KJTx/QJTxx/AJ, assuming you would still open this 1NT? (if not, make a diamond a spade) There is an alternative, namely to play that 1NT - 2♣; 2♥ - 3♦ is a GF heart raise and continue the transfer structure down the line to 2♠. A sample auction might be:-

1NT - 2♣;
2♥ - 3♦;
3♠ = not 3433, frivolous
... - 4♦ = serious, diamond control?
4NT = yes, and 0 or 3 key cards
... - 5♦ = K ask
5♥ = no side kings
... - 6♣ = club SSA
6♥ = no ♣Q, 3+ clubs
... - 7♥

Notice that if you wanted to, you could still play 4♣ over 2♥ as RKCG, although direct splinters are also good. What you give up is whatever you currently play a 2♠ rebid over 2♥ as; in return you get the GF raise plus a few extra sequences by way of the transfers. Whether it is a good trade is something to judge for yourself and might depend on how efficient other parts of the structure are and even the form of scoring.

[P_Marlowe]

yunling, on 2013-April-27, 22:27, said:

I did know p has either DQ or SQ to make up his 15 count in the shown auction, but I wonder if it is enough for a grand.

As awn pointed out, you have 13 tricks if the club suit produces 5tricks, if p has 3 clubs with the ace, this will be 68%
of the time.
Even without Axx, you will have 5 tricks 33% of the time + the diamond finesse, independ of the club suit, which makes this
66% of the time that you will have 13 tricks.
Bidding the grand depening on a 3-2 trump split is considered ok, you have roughly 66% instead of 68%, this being the worst
case scenario, so the answer is - Yes.

I did not consider the required trump break, which would reduce the number, but than you may get a helpful lead.

With kind regards
Marlowe