[luke warm]

you have:

---

the bidding goes:

W N E S
P 1D 1S P
P

on a scale of 1-10, what bid by north would you expect to work out best the majority of time?

[EricK]

A 1NT opening. But unfortunately it's too late for that

Eric

[luke warm]

my mistake eric, i should have asked what *rebid* by north... yes, too late for a 1nt opening

[pclayton]

Double. Pass is taking a position on the hand (which could be right mind you).

Nothing else fits.

[EricK]

Vulnerability and type of scoring are important here, as are opponent's methods. Is LHO the type who will overcall his longest suit even with very strong hands or would he double first on that type? Also, is partner the sort who would pass initially with a spade stack or would he bid NT?

Eric

[luke warm]

nobody vulnerable and i don't know what east does differently between a regular overcall and a monster

[luke warm]

maybe i've been reading too much of that book by klinger (ron, be sure to tell him i'm doing my best to sell that sucker, maybe he'll cut me in for some cash), but one of his maxims is to double in this position

i know one hand doesn't prove anything, but the result here was 1S down 4... not doubled

[mike777]

ya, if you x RHO runs to 2h and makes 3 I think. Not sure if 3nt makes on H lead. No one bid or made it.
Note, 1D here was 9-14HCP and denied majors.
Lesson hand for me, I note all say reopen with X is clear.
Down 4 VUL plus 400 was great score anyway (top).

[fred]

I personally think that the very popular strategy of usually reopening with double is highly overrated, particularly if your partnership has discussed the concept of never (well almost never) trap passing with a strong hand. You don't need to collect a lot of penalties at the 1-level to win at this game and bad things frequently happen when your style "forces" you to reopen with a horrible (and perhaps offshape) hand.

Playing with such a partner I would in fact pass 1S on the actual hand (as I would with most balanced minimums).

This approach to balancing has been a big winner for me and my regular partners over the years. Probably I should be a little bit more careful about sharing our secrets as I enjoy playing against people who have not figured this out yet

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[Flame]

fred, on Jan 1 2005, 05:24 PM, said:

I personally think that the very popular strategy of usually reopening with double is highly overrated, particularly if your partnership has discussed the concept of never (well almost never) trap passing with a strong hand. You don't need to collect a lot of penalties at the 1-level to win at this game and bad things frequently happen when your style "forces" you to reopen with a horrible (and perhaps offshape) hand.

Playing with such a partner I would in fact pass 1S on the actual hand (as I would with most balanced minimums).

This approach to balancing has been a big winner for me and my regular partners over the years. Probably I should be a little bit more careful about sharing our secrets as I enjoy playing against people who have not figured this out yet

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

Wow that is a big secrete, i would never pass this one.

[HeartA]

luke warm, on Jan 1 2005, 03:41 PM, said:

you have:

---

the bidding goes:

W N E S
P 1D 1S P
P

on a scale of 1-10, what bid by north would you expect to work out best the majority of time?

13 hcp, flat hand, pd is silent after your lho's overcall, I don't have any other choice but "pass", unless your minimum opening strength is 0 hcp.

Totally agree with Fred.

[luke warm]

as i said, anything can happen on any one hand, that's why i'm so against resulting a hand... the question is, in the long run do you expect to do better by passing, bidding, or doubling with the given hand on the given bidding?

perhaps they do run to another suit *this* time, perhaps they don't... maybe another bid even makes for them this time, but maybe it doesn't make next time... fred certainly has more judgement and experience than most of us will ever have, but other world class players who might reopen that hand more often than they'd pass... who's right? who knows? whatever works for you, i guess

btw, how many points do you expect the 1♠ bidder to have on this hand? how bout his partner? how bout *your* partner? finally, if you do pass 1♠ here, why do you? do you think 1♠ passed out will be tops? maybe it will be this time, but what do you think happens the majority of the time? maybe someone with one of those neat programs can run a sim and tell us, then we'd know for sure...

oh, i agree that reopening with a bad or offshape hand might not work... imo this was neither

[fred]

Luke,

This is a bad hand. It is a minimum balanced opening bid and one of your best cards (the King of spades) has highly questionable value given LHO's overcall.

Sometimes when I give a bidding problem to a player with more experience than I have, his only justification for his action is "been there, done that". There are some players that I have enough respect for, that such an answer from them is good enough for me, but I can understand how some people might require a better explanation in order to be convinced. I will try to explain why I think it is clearly right to pass the hand in question:

Consider the kind of hand your partner might have for his pass over 1S, there are really only 4 answers:

1) A horrible hand, most likely with some spade length

2) A spade trap and a weak hand

3) A spade trap and a strong hand

4) A hand with some values (say 8 points or so) that is not appropriate for a negative double, a raise of diamonds, or a 1NT advance.

If partner has hand type 1) you certainly want to pass out 1S. If you do anything else you risk either pushing the opponents into a better spot (and possibly a making game) or going for a number. Suppose for example partner has something like this:

Jxxxx
xxx
xx
Kxx

If you reopened with a double he will be endplayed into either passing (they rate to make at least 1S or anything else they bid if they run - note that most partnerships would be in a force if that happened - what fun!) or running to 1NT (which rates to go down about 3 - quite possibly doubled). If he is unlucky enough to have a been dealt a bad 4-card suit in clubs or hearts, the penalty could be even worse.

If partner has hand type 2), then you have them where you want them in 1S. You don't make anything, they are going down in 1S, and they most likely can make something else when they run from 1S doubled (which they will).

If partner has hand type 3), then you should double, but if you read my previous post in this thread carefully, you will note that I suggest it is a bad idea to trap pass when you have a strong hand (ie a hand that rates to produce game opposite a weak notrump). So, if you buy my argument, partner should not have hand type 3). Even if you don't buy my argument, hand 3) is statistically the least likely of all of the hand types (sorry - I can't prove this easily) and besides, the opps still might have a good fit in another suit. Even if none of these things happen to be the case on the actual deal, defending 1S undoubed down 4 or so doesn't have to be a terrible result - sometimes your game contract goes down.

Hand type 4) is a tough one, especially at matchpoints. When partner has such a hand it is *probably* right to double, but it could easily be right to sell out (especially since he is going to have a really tough call to make if you do double and your side could well get overboard or end up in a poor 7-card fit). Besides that, many experts nowadays bend over backwards to make some kind of call on the first round on a type 4) hand. For example:

xxxx
Ax
KJx
xxxx

I would not pass 1S, I would raise to 2D. I admit that this is not exactly mainstream, but my experience suggests that this bid is a winner.

The bottom line is that you have a lot more to lose than you have to gain by reopening with this hand (especially if your partnership tends to avoid trap passing with a strong hand).

Hope you are convinced now - if not I am going to have to leave it to someone else to argue the case for pass - I have to get back to work...

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[luke warm]

ok, you've convinced me that, especially if hand type 3 is ruled out, it's probably better to pass a minimum flattish hand (a weak no trumpish hand)... my thinking was based on what i perceived the other 3 hands to be.... i was going by 1} east's bidding and not doubling, 2} west's inability to muster even 1nt, and 3} how those two things jived with partner's pass... i believe type 3 is probably statistically the least likely of the 4 for partner to have, taken a priori, and it might even be so given the bidding on this hand...

as for never (or rarely) trap passing, that's something that hadn't occured to me, and of course my opinion of north's possible actions didn't take that into account... in any case, thanks for taking the time to give your insights... they are much appreciated and very valuable, and can only help us all improve

[pclayton]

Well its nice to have Fred check in on these problems.

It still feels right to double, although knowing the vulnerability would be nice. Pard appears to have a smattering of points; and we might have a fit somewhere. Obviously double could work out very well or very terrible. We could get our head handed to us in 2 of a minor, pard passes 1♠ x'd for lack of a better call, etc..

Its the in-between hands that sway me. A lot of good things can happen; we are +90 in 2♦ against -80 or 110 in ♠'s, or they take the push to 2♠ which doesnt fetch. Of the moderately bad things that can happen, we can for -1 or -2 vul against -110 or -140.

Winning the partscore at both tables is 5-6 IMPs for the home team.

Its a good hand for Master Solvers, don't you think?

[flytoox]

I think vul. here is important. If we r red, pass is better. If they are red, try a dbl. The good thing about dbl is that you do have some support whatever pd bids.

[Fluffy]

I never heard of not passing with strong hands and long good spades, so I woudl double.

If you decided not to pass with that, what do you bid then?

[pclayton]

Fluffy, Fred's point is that if pard won't reopen with a balanced 12-13, then its not right to make a penalty pass with a hand suitable for 3N, if there is any chance pard will let them play 1♠.

Level, vulnerability and scoring all play a big role in this equation.