[mdietz39]

I wish to thank all of you who have responded to my qustions. Your replys have been thought provoling and very informative. Thank you.

This question has to do with which is proper, doing a takeout double or bidding a suit. I must forewarn you that hindsight has actually prompted the question.

The auction (at a local club) was East bid 1 Spade and South had to answer. South's hand was:
Spade 10; Heart K,J,9,5,2; Diamond A,J 9 3; Club A,K,6.
Either a takeout double or a bid of 2 Hearts would have been proper. Which should she do? Also N/S was vulnerable and E/W was not.

Here is the hindsight. West also had 5 Spades and North had 5 Hearts. East had 10 HCP (opened very light, 2 doubletons), South 16 HCP, West 6 HCP, North 8 HCP.

There were three types of possible auctions done at the club.
1. 1S - Dbl - 4S - P - P - P
2. 1S - Dbl - 4S - 5H - P - P - P (just conjecture as to the 5H bid since no 4 Heart bid is shown by the results)
3. 1S - 2H - 3S - 4H - 4S - 5H - P - P - P

Double Dummy shows E/W can make 3 Spades, N/S can make 5 Hearts.
In the club (0 - over 5,000 master points) 3 did auction 1, 0 did auction 2, and 14 did auction 3.
One further caveat, about 6 pairs scored 100 which could be down 2 on E/W or down 1 on N/S. This seems to indicate that South sould not takeout double but bid the suit. I know number 3 occurred because that is what we did.

Two questions:
How does one decide to ignore the 4S bid after the takeout double and bid 5 Hearts?
How does one decide not to do a takeout double instead of bidding a suit?

Thank you very much for any discussion about this.
Mike

[Fluffy]

5431 doubles when opponents bid yor singleton with the exception of 5cM bidable at the 1 level.

Here it is at the 2 level and double is normal. 2♥ is not ridicoulous and some people will do it, I don't like it.

The wrong bidding on your examples is #2. Wich makes no sense, if you cannot introduce a 5 card suit at the 2 level you obviously don't introduce it at the 5 level!. What I mean is: if you double first, you double second as well, there is no second choice.

[gwnn]

2 hearts for me. You can't find your 5-3 otherwise. This is not that bad a suit.

[mdietz39]

Thank you for the answers. I agree the 2nd bid is stupid. How do you jump to a new suit without any knowledge of your partner's hand. And I agree the 2 Hearts bid is the one to do. If you double you allow the opponents to literally steal the acution with the 4 Spades bid. And that is the crux of my question. How do you know when to double or to bid a suit? I guess the answer is you don't, you just go with your instincts in this case. If West did not have 4 or 5 Spades then the double would be appropriate, when he has 5 Spades it is the wrong bid.
Mike

[rmnka447]

I would bid 2 ♥ with the hand.

I'll offer the caveat that Mike Lawrence is pretty adamant in his book on overcalls about overcalling at the 2 level with good suit holdings. ♥ KJ9xx would probably not be a very attractive holding to overcall on for him. However, South has the equivalent of a really good more than minimum range opening bid. So I believe the extra strength offsets the lack of suit quality in the overcall suit. (No, I would never overcall at the 2 level with a really terrible suit holding such as Qxxxx no matter how strong I was.)

In competitive bidding, it also pays to think ahead about the possible next round of bidding.

Consider, for instance, if the bidding would have gone 1 ♠ - DBL - 2 ♠ - P - P - ? South has an unenviable choice to make. Does South now risk bidding ♥s at the 3 level? Or, does South DBL again and risk losing a highly playable ♥ contract with a 5-3 fit?

Now consider if the bidding had gone 1 ♠ - 2 ♥ - 2 ♠ - P - P - ? South has an easy DBL which shows extras, and a willingness to compete. North will have a pretty good picture of what South's hand is (which happens to be just about the exact hand held here) and can help the partnership find the best spot to play. The bonus comes when West has strained to raise ♠s and North has the right values to sit for the double.

This kind of thinking about a potential second bid is what probably led the majority to overcall rather than double.

Also, after an initial Takeout Double, it will be very difficult for North to ever envision that South holds 5 ♥s. That may be very important in certain competitive bidding situations.

[Fluffy]

gwnn, on 2013-April-21, 04:10, said:

2 hearts for me. You can't find your 5-3 otherwise. This is not that bad a suit.

You can't find the 5-2 either

[Zelandakh]

I am one of those who prefers to bid a 5 card major most of the time and would with this hand too. As gwnn writes, the heart suit is not so bad and the general strength of the hand makes up for it. I think this style is easier for intermediates to play, even if the other is theoretically better with more intricate agreements. I think you may have missed in your list auctions such as:
1♠ - 2♥ - 4♠ - 5♥
and
1♠ - 2♥ - 4♠ - 4NT; P - 5♦ - P - 5♥.
That is, auctions where we overcall, they jump directly to game, and then we compete further. You should also be wary of drawing any firm conclusions such as "This seems to indicate that South sould not takeout double but bid the suit." from a single hand. There are many very good players who would prefer double on this hand.

Incidentally, @Fluffy, I think you might have misread auction #2. It is Advancer who introduces the hearts, not Doubler.

[gszes]

The closer you are to having classic shape for a TOX the better off you
generally are using it. This is a great ex of a hand with tremendous
flexibility to play in 3 different places. The fact that this hand makes
it possible for p to eke out a 5h bid (if we overcall vs x) is not reason
enough to abandon a TOX.

By overcalling 2h we make any minor suit sacrifice or game virtually
impossible to reach if the bidding goes 1s 2h 4s. Bridge is a game
of % do not worry about 1 specific example. The most interesting
aspect of this hand of the bidding were to go 1s x p 2h your hand
suddenly becomes much stronger in fact it is probably not out of
line to bid 4h knowing most of the enemy stuff is with rho and the
trump suit should supply ample entries to take advantage of
finesses.

The next question is if you decide to x what is the difference between
another x and 4n??? IMO it is how "transferable" your values are.
void Axxxx Axxx AK is a very reasonable 2nd x void QJxxx KQJx KQJx
is a 4n bid having little to no desire to penalize 4s. Most hands will
fall somewhere between these 2 extremes and the vulnerability
imps vs mp and state of the match can all play an important role
as to how you proceed. The important part is to be on the same
page with partner.

On the given hand I would start with x and x again when 4s came back
to me. I do not know what your p would have done since you do
not show their hand (who knows p might have had a 5h bid over 4s)
xxxx Axxxxx void QJx for ex

[lalldonn]

I think 2♥ is a perfectly normal bid and I wouldn't really even consider double. Often the bidding will continue 2♠ P P and then doubling on that round finishes describing my hand perfectly. Finding 5-3 heart fits is very important and that possibility is pretty much flushed down the toilet if you start with a double. I might double with this shape with really bad hearts like Jxxxx but not otherwise, unless I was planning to double then bid hearts which this hand isn't good enough for. On this hand double is just weird to me, despite a few people choosing it.

[P_Marlowe]

If you have a 5 card major and the choice ie between bidding or with a T/O,
go with showing the suit.

In the case of 2H over 1S it is closer, if you have min values for the call,
but having a good opening hand 16+ stick with the major.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[cherdano]

2♥ doesn't give up on minor suit contracts. I am certainly doubling back in if 3♠ or 4♠ gets passed back to me.
And I certainly prefer (1♠) 2♥ (3♠) P (P) X over (1♠) X (3♠) P (P) ??