[eagles123]

Hi all,

this is an area I struggle with, bidding over 1NT with game values and a long minor/shortage elsewhere. I play weak nt 12-14 and example hand:

♠J53
♥KT9
♦K
♣KQJT86

with these hands i'll tend to just blast to 3N and i'd say most of the time it works but sometimes, like here it was a disaster - they lead a ♦ and p had 3 small ones so we lost the first 6 tricks 5 ♦ and Ace of ♠

I know how to transfer to the minor etc etc but I'm not sure how to bid on after I have done that... or would a 3♣ bid be asking P to show his controls up the line i.e. when he fails to show ♦ control we can look for safer contract?


Thanks,

Eagles123

[aguahombre]

Yep, we either have methods, know their continations, and use them...or we don't.

We have Puppet 3C available in case there is an 8-card major fit. Others have Stayman, then 3C. Many have 4-suit transfers and would or would not choose to do that here.

We most likely would end in 3NT after 3C Puppet and be in your same boat. Oh, well. And same if 1NT were stronger..actually more so. Opposite your 12-14, it is more likely we need to go carefully.

[eagles123]

aguahombre, on 2013-April-09, 11:00, said:

Yep, we either have methods, know their continations, and use them...or we don't.

We have Puppet 3C available in case there is an 8-card major fit. Others have Stayman, then 3C. Many have 4-suit transfers and would or would not choose to do that here.

We most likely would end in 3NT after 3C Puppet and be in your same boat. Oh, well. And same if 1NT were stronger..actually more so. Opposite your 12-14, it is more likely we need to go carefully.

Ah I like that a lot and nope you would end in 4♥ if u used 3♣ puppet as P had 5 ♥ with the A + J... 4 hearts makes easily.

Eagles123

[wank]

it's perfectly normal to get to 3nt on these types of hands.

they might not lead a diamond.

the opening leader might underlead the ace.

some people will reply with details of their zbolwumba relay responses whereby they diagnose the critical weakness and alight in 4c. you can safely ignore them.

[mikeh]

The usual treatment after a transfer to a minor is for responder's new suit at the 3 level to show shortness.

It is entirely defensible, imo, to not do this with a stiff K opposite a 1N opening. You had to be unlucky to go down...they had to lead a diamond and not have underlead the A even when partner has no diamond stop. Meanwhile 5 club could often be down when partner has, say Axx in diamonds and chooses to push in clubs out of fear of not having 9 quicks...or maybe Qx(x) etc. There is a huge difference between stiff K and stiff x, not only in that suit but also in the other suits, where, once you gf, partner will expect more stuff than you have.

In one of my two weak 1N partnerships, we have the agreement that we wouldn't open 1N with a decent 5 card major.

In both my weak 1N partnerships, we use 2 way stayman rather than transfers, and now we bid 2D, partner bids 2H, we show our suit and partner bids 3H...in one merely showing weak 5 card hearts or chunky 4 bagger, and in the other suggesting any 5 card heart suit. In either case, we can bid 4H imo.

[eagles123]

mikeh, on 2013-April-09, 11:17, said:

The usual treatment after a transfer to a minor is for responder's new suit at the 3 level to show shortness.

It is entirely defensible, imo, to not do this with a stiff K opposite a 1N opening. You had to be unlucky to go down...they had to lead a diamond and not have underlead the A even when partner has no diamond stop. Meanwhile 5 club could often be down when partner has, say Axx in diamonds and chooses to push in clubs out of fear of not having 9 quicks...or maybe Qx(x) etc. There is a huge difference between stiff K and stiff x, not only in that suit but also in the other suits, where, once you gf, partner will expect more stuff than you have.

In one of my two weak 1N partnerships, we have the agreement that we wouldn't open 1N with a decent 5 card major.

In both my weak 1N partnerships, we use 2 way stayman rather than transfers, and now we bid 2D, partner bids 2H, we show our suit and partner bids 3H...in one merely showing weak 5 card hearts or chunky 4 bagger, and in the other suggesting any 5 card heart suit. In either case, we can bid 4H imo.

the issue with the bid at the 3 level showing shortage is I play 2NT --> 3♣ and then either pass or correct to ♦ so a 3 ♦ bid would be to play. yes i know 4 way trans probably better but I like leaving 2♠ open as an enquiry.

It was unlucky to go down, the other hand had AQxxx ♦ so I think leading the Ace is unlikely, any other lead and 9 tricks are easy.

Eagles123

[Cyberyeti]

wank, on 2013-April-09, 11:10, said:

it's perfectly normal to get to 3nt on these types of hands.

they might not lead a diamond.

the opening leader might underlead the ace.

some people will reply with details of their zbolwumba relay responses whereby they diagnose the critical weakness and alight in 4c. you can safely ignore them.

In general I agree with you, but partner didn't have to have the A♣ so there's no guarantee you're in good shape even if the K♦ scores, if partner has say AKx, AQxx, xxx, xxx you really don't want to be in 3N (5♣ is good but not cold, but at least it only goes 1 off if it fails).

I think we'd bid 1N-3♣-3♥-4♥ in this case but our methods aren't greatly suited to this hand.

[Mbodell]

I can also show stiffs in any suit on the 3-level, but agree I wouldn't do so with a stiff K. Even with a low stiff I'm not convinced splintering over 1nt is a winner (often identifies the killing lead and results in 5m scoring less than most of the 3nt pairs). With a stiff diamond many will lead a major opposite a 1nt-3nt sequence anyways.

[Vampyr]

eagles123, on 2013-April-09, 11:28, said:

the issue with the bid at the 3 level showing shortage is I play 2NT --> 3♣ and then either pass or correct to ♦ so a 3 ♦ bid would be to play. yes i know 4 way trans probably better but I like leaving 2♠ open as an enquiry.

Right, I think people assumed from the OP that you were playing 4-way transfers. In that case you would show a GF hand with clubs by bidding 3♣ either directly or after Stayman, according to your preference, and you can agree to do what you suggest in the OP. You can also, after your 2NT puppet, play 3♥ and 3♠ as some sort of minor-suit hand, but this will not help here.

Anyway, you are not slammish, so many would not bother introducing the clubs but instead look for a 5-card major if methods allow. And... just raising to 3NT is reasonable on this hand.

[Free]

My advice: if you have a top honor (A, K or Q) singleton, don't treat it as a shortness. Not only in this situation btw. Partner can easily have ♦Qxx or JTx, and in these cases our ♦K does the job of stopping the suit. If we show shortness, partner will panic and you may end up in an unplayable 5♣ while 3NT is a walk in the park. When you have a small singleton it's usually better to show it.

[steve2005]

How bout 3♣ invitational? Sure your a little heavy but K♦ may (and was ) be useless and unless partner has A♣ you not favoured to make 3N.

[1eyedjack]

steve2005, on 2013-April-10, 15:05, said:

How bout 3♣ invitational? Sure your a little heavy but K♦ may (and was ) be useless and unless partner has A♣ you not favoured to make 3N.

hmm try explaining that theory to teammates when you score up and check the sympathy meter